Why you NEVER take advice from The Red Pill

This is the most selfish thing I’ve written so far.

A few weeks ago, I was driving my car and I realized that the driver seat seemed a little low compared to the rest of the car. Was my seat crooked? No, the seat was fine. Suddenly, I felt a pit in my stomach. I got out of the car and hoped that it wasn’t what I thought that it was.

It was. The tire went flat. Welp.

To make things worse, it was below freezing outside and I had not put on nearly enough layers to keep myself warm. Double welp.

With no other options, I rolled up my sleeves and got to work. However, it turned out that the lug nuts were frozen in place and could not be easily removed. That’s how I found myself stuck on the side of the road with a flat in subzero temperatures. Triple welp.

My reaction?

I’m a calm and gentle person by nature and it takes a lot to get me angry. So, when something does get me ticked off then you better believe it’s a big thing.

This ticks me off. Buckle up because it’s about to get real.

Recently I came across a post on Reddit where the poster asked “How much of the Red Pill is true?” and “Do women really respond to this quite well? Which type of women? All of them? I’m actually now scared to continue dating this girl now because I feel like eventually I’ll be the boring guy she is dating and she’ll cheat on me eventually with the Red Pill guy. The rock hard built guy who has lots of friends and social dominance.”

Ugh! It ticks me off that The Red Pill exists!!

What is The Red Pill?

If you don’t know what The Red Pill is then consider yourself lucky. I hope you hang on to your innocence for as long as you can.

Okay, okay. I get sarcastic and I start swearing when I’m angry but I’ll try to put that aside for the sake of writing a coherent article. No promises, though!

The Red Pill is a subreddit on the Reddit internet forums that purports to be about “Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men”. In reality, it’s ridden with misogyny and sleazy tactics that are utterly disrespectful to women.

I mean, look at that post at the bottom of the screen “7 Tips on keeping a Plate”. They don’t even recognize women as human beings. They refer to women as “plates”. FUCKING PLATES! And it’s got OVER 100 UPVOTES!!

Here’s a few examples of what they preach:

  • They teach “dread game” or making your girlfriend fear that you’re about to break up with her in order to make her do what you want her to do
  • Women are hypergamous and that they instinctually seek out the best Alpha male available, even if that means leaving the man that they are currently dating (or are married to)
  • Alphas make up 20% of the male population and have sex with 80% of women
  • If a woman is hesitant about having sex then you need to push past her “last minute resistance”
  • They believe that “All Women Are Like That” and that she’ll constantly throw “shit tests” at you to determine how much of an Alpha you really are

About that last bullet. According to The Red Pill, if she says: “I’m mad at you!” then it’s a shit test. The incorrect or Beta response (apparently) is to ask her what’s wrong or how you can make it better. Supposedly, the correct or Alpha response is to say something like “Good”, “I like you better mad”, or “That’s too bad. Frowning causes wrinkles.”

Does that sound like a bunch of nonsense to you? If so, that’s a good thing because it means you’re a decent human being. Common sense tells us that a lot of their ideas are wrong, that dread game is a scummy tactic, that women can’t be blanket generalized as hypergamous, and that shit tests are idiotic.

The truth about “Alpha” and “Beta”

According to The Red Pill, the “Alphas” form 20% of the men and they get to have sex with 80% of the women. This is commonly referred to as “Alpha Fucks/Beta Bucks” by random weirdos on the internet who have no formal education in human behavior and yet who claim to understand women better than women understand themselves. If you pass her “shit tests” then you can prove yourself an alpha but if you fail then you’re a beta.

The Red Pill claims that this is how wolves behave in nature. The Alpha wolf is the leader of his pack and has the first choice of female wolves to choose from, while the Betas get his leftovers. They use this to justify acting like a jerk in real life because that’s supposedly how Alphas behave.

That’s also wrong.

Alpha and Beta don’t even exist in nature. The terms alpha and beta were first popularized in part by Dr. David L. Mech in 1970 based on his observations of wolves—in captivity. However, in 1999 he realized that wolves don’t naturally behave that way without human intervention and has since renounced the concept of alpha and beta. That’s right, The Red Pill is based on concepts that have been disproven for almost 20 years!

Why do this, then? Why use the terms alpha and beta when they’ve been demonstrated to be false? What’s really going on is that alpha and beta are used as a recruitment strategy. It forms a sort of club, and anyone who is a part of their in-crowd is labeled an “Alpha” and anyone who isn’t is labeled a “Beta”. The people who have swallowed The Red Pill and accepted the alternative facts as objective facts become their own clique, like the way that the jocks or cheerleaders or nerds form their own groups in high school.

After all, you don’t want to be a beta do you? You don’t want to lose your woman to one of the alphas who are having sex with 80% of the women right??

Forming their own clique allows them to rationalize away any logical argument against their ideology. If someone tells them that alpha and beta don’t actually exist in nature, they can just say “Oh, don’t listen to what he’s saying. He’s just a beta.”

It provides a way for blame someone else for your problems

As Dale Carnegie writes in How to Win Friends and Influence People, the infamous gangster Al Capone never thought himself guilty but instead saw himself as an unfairly persecuted man who only wanted to help others. When we fail at something, one of the hardest things we can possibly do is to take an honest look at ourselves and try to identify what we did wrong. It’s much, much easier to find someone or something else to blame for our shortcomings.

That guy who was my classmate in school and is now getting paid more than I am? He’s just a brown-nosing suck-up. I’m having trouble getting a date? It’s because I’m short and/or Asian. My friends keep beating me in Mario Party? They’re just lucky. As the Joker said in The Lego Batman Movie, “I’m not your worst enemy. Your worst enemy is you.”

On second thought, that one about losing at Mario Party might actually be true…

This kind of sleazy advice is prevalent because it offers men who are struggling with women an alternative explanation to why they aren’t having success with women. Some men struggle with women because they’re socially awkward, or they’re not presenting themselves well, or they have a negative attitude that women find unattractive. That’s a tough pill to swallow.

An easier pill to swallow is to simply blame other people for your failures. It’s much easier for them to blame feminism, or to claim that women don’t like nice guys, or to say that women are all irrational creatures and that’s why they can’t get a girlfriend. It doesn’t matter to them whether or not that’s actually true. The Red Pill offers them the dark promise of being able to get success with women without having to take that hard look at yourself and admit that you may be doing something wrong. The cost of admission is that you become a terrible person in the process. You sell your soul to the devil.

The price you pay for following The Red Pill

Okay, let’s get right to the Million Dollar Question. Does The Red Pill work?

It “works” in that you might be able to get a woman to stay with you in the short term. But after that you’ll begin to wonder why all of your relationships feel so unfulfilling.

The Red Pill is flat out emotional abuse. If you’re seeing a woman and you start to use dread game, she might wonder why you’ve suddenly started to act all cold and distant. She’ll wonder, “Is something the matter? What’s bothering you?”

The Red Pill will tell you that this is a shit test. Don’t fall for it. Hold your frame. Keep doing what you’re doing so that she’ll recognize you as an alpha and not a beta.

Maybe she’ll try harder to make you happy. Not because she’s trying to trick you but because she’s genuinely trying to make you feel better. “What’s gotten into you?” she thinks. To you, it looks like The Red Pill is working. But every dread game you play cuts her emotionally. She can’t feel the warmth or the secure, trusting bond that comes with a healthy relationship because you’re too busy waging psychological warfare with her. She may stick around for a period of time, hoping that you see the light and stop playing games with her.

But you don’t, because The Red Pill tells you not to look like a beta. And eventually she’ll get fed up and leave. Maybe not today. Maybe in a matter of weeks, or months, or even years. But she cannot be happy in such a relationship and every game you play just pushes her that much farther out the door.

You turn to The Red Pill forum. You post about your experience. Are the other guys there going to think for a while and say to themselves “Maybe this Red Pill isn’t working after all?” Nope. Instead, they’ll encourage you to double down on your beliefs!

“All Women Are Like That. AWALT,” they’ll tell you. “She fell in love with Chad.” You weren’t alpha enough, so she left you for someone who was. And you buy even deeper into The Red Pill philosophy in order to make yourself more alpha, unwilling to face the fact that it was The Red Pill that messed you up in the first place.

“The Red Pill is just incomplete! You can just take the good and leave the bad!”

*sigh* Here’s where I really get ticked off…

This is something I’ve heard from people defending The Red Pill. The Red Pill is not bad, they say. It’s just incomplete. You can just take whatever good advice you find there and ignore the misogynist parts.

Here’s the thing, though…NO OTHER SELF-HELP LITERATURE REQUIRES YOU TO DO THIS!! If you’re reading Models by Mark Manson or Mate by Tucker Max or The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by the late Stephen Covey, you don’t have to filter out the misogynist parts to only try and find the good parts. All of it is good advice! None of it is misogyny!!

Also, how are you supposed to filter out the bad stuff in the first place if you’re inexperienced and you don’t know anything about dating? You need to already be knowledgeable about dating in order cherry-pick the good gems of advice out of the bad stuff. But that’s why you were looking for advice in the first place…because you weren’t knowledgeable about dating yet and you wanted to be! How are you supposed to pick out the good advice from the bad if you don’t already know what the good advice is!?!

Finally, the people you surround yourself with influence your perception of reality. Even when you don’t think it does. In a 2005 experiment conducted by Gregory Berns of Emory University, volunteers played a game where they were shown two different objects on a computer screen and asked to decide whether the first object could be rotated to match the second. When played alone, the volunteers were incorrect only 13.8 percent of the time. But, when played with a group of other people—who were actually actors instructed to unanimously give the wrong answers—the volunteers were incorrect 41 percent of the time.

Here’s the kicker. Were the volunteers consciously giving the wrong answer to fit in with the group? Or, did the group’s opinion actually change the way they saw the shapes? We know the answer, because the volunteers had MRI scans as they were doing the activity. The volunteers weren’t consciously trying to fit in with the group.

The volunteers gave the wrong answers because the group’s opinion changed their perception of reality!

The people you surround yourself with influence the way you see the world. Many of us think we’re immune to marketing, even as we are unconsciously influenced by it. If you swallow The Red Pill thinking you’re smart enough to just ignore the misogyny, guess again. That’s when it really gets you.

“But I used The Red Pill and it helped me!”

That might be true. If you have used The Red Pill and accomplished some sort of self-improvement, congratulations. I mean that. There’s no need for me to belittle your accomplishment in any way.

I will admit The Red Pill does have some good gems of advice. Abundance mentality. Not putting women on a pedestal. Working out and being healthy. All good pieces of advice to follow.

Here’s the thing about taking advice from The Red Pill, though. All of those good gems of advice are buried under mountains and mountains of misogyny. And if you’ve successfully applied advice from The Red Pill to better your dating life, then you could have gone to any other place that offers dating advice and gotten those same gems, but without all of the woman-hating.

Seriously, go read something like Models by Mark Manson or How to Win Friends and Influence People by the late Dale Carnegie.

“There will always be people being extreme or callous but why the charge against the actual philosophy? It’s like hating the whole of Islam because of the actions of a small sub-group.”

Finally, I’m sure some people will think I’m being too harsh with The Red Pill as a whole. That it’s not worth dismissing the entire philosophy just because some of its follows have decided to be all misogynistic and women-hating.

And to that I have to say…

It refers to women as “bitches” on the FUCKING SIDEBAR!!!

*sigh*

Alright, alright. Calm down Steve.

Is it too optimistic for me to believe that the 2,400 words I’ve written above are going to convince anyone to spit out The Red Pill? Probably. Red Pillers have an amazing capacity to ignore logic, even though they claim that women are the illogical ones.

No, I don’t honest believe that any of this is going to convert any Red Pill followers away from the cult.

When I was little, I used to be afraid of many things that my adult self would think was silly today. I used to be afraid of the dark. Of monsters hiding in my closet. Of that freaking piano guarding the red coin in Big Boo’s Haunt and that giant eel in Jolly Roger Bay.

Seriously Nintendo, this thing is freaking terrifying when you’re young!

Today, the things that scare me are different. What scares me is the idea that a well-meaning gentleman might stumble upon The Red Pill. Perhaps he doesn’t have a lot of dating experience. Or maybe he’s been burned a few times in the past by women who didn’t respect him. So he goes looking for dating advice. And he comes across The Red Pill.

It makes him feel uncomfortable at first. “Is this really true?” he wonders. He doesn’t feel too good about the advice, but he doesn’t have that frame of reference to dispute the things he’s reading. He doesn’t have enough experience to argue against what they’re saying. So he tries to implement what he comes across. And it seems to work, at first. He gets more dates. More women going out with him. He feels a little better about himself. But his relationships are rocky and filled with drama. Has he started to become a jerk? An asshole? Should he start to reconsider his beliefs?

“All Women Are Like That. AWALT,” The Red Pill tells him. They reassure him that it’s not his fault. That the reason for all his dating hardships is because women are little emotional creatures who are unable to use logic. They’re not even human beings. They’re “plates”. And at that crucial moment when he begins to reconsider the way he interacts with women, The Red Pill persuades him otherwise and instead encourages him to double down on his beliefs. To “alpha” even harder and stop being such a “beta”. Then she’ll get the tingles for him and do anything that he wants. And all of his problems will be solved. So he sinks even further into the cult and loses any shred of self-awareness, blaming women for his problems while simultaneously being the cause of them.

To me, The Red Pill is complete and utter nonsense. And I hope that it’s nonsense to you as well. I didn’t write this article to convince any Red Pillers to leave their cult. I’m not that optimistic. Like I said before, I’ve written this post for selfish reasons.

I wrote this on the off-chance that the well-meaning gentleman sees this post first. I want him to know that there’s an alternative to all that sleazy advice out there. Before he accidentally stumbles upon The Red Pill. Because that idea scares me. It keeps me up at night and makes it hard to fall asleep, knowing that this sort of misogynistic darkness exists. So maybe…just maybe…he’ll see this post first before he wanders off into The Red Pill.

If you’re reading this, I want you to know that you NEVER take advice from The Red Pill. Ever.

Maybe now I can fall asleep tonight.

67 thoughts on “Why you NEVER take advice from The Red Pill

  1. Thank you for writing this. A few nights ago I found myself inmersed in this dante-like cult and the other side of the coin too, The Black Pill. It really scares the shit out of me too thinking that in these obscure places dwell this kind of people and everyday more kids will be reading this…I don’t even know if I should talk with friends about this, fearing that there’s no such thing as bad publicity. Cheers my friend, hard to not being sad about certain stuff….

  2. This was a good read right up until the very end where it was all torn apart by you having that AD.
    “Sign up and you’ll get my free “How to Talk to Women” conversational cheat sheet that will show you exact words you can use to approach her, to keep the conversation going, and then to get her number or ask her out.”
    This makes you no better than the horrible red-pillers your whole article was about.

    1. As sleazy as that ad at the end is, and despite the fact that I haven’t even read the newsletter in question…

      I really, really doubt that it contains anything even remotely as misanthropic as The Red Pill. That stuff is legitimately dangerous, while I’m going to guess that the contents of the newsletter are just trite and potentially selling the email address to spammers. I’d pick trite and spammy over teaching people how to perform emotional abuse any day.

    2. Let me get this straight.

      I’ve created something that’s 1) helpful, 2) free, and 3) completely optional to sign up for…and this makes me as bad as the Red Pill followers that I denounce? Why is that?

      Keep in mind that this article is over 3,000 words long. I expect the same level of detail in your response.

  3. “Seriously, go read something like Models by Mark Manson or How to Win Friends and Influence People by the late Dale Carnegie.” I did.
    Models didn’t do anything for me.
    How to win friends was very helpful… In winning friends and being friend-zoned.
    What else?

  4. I gotta feeling you attack TRP as you see it as competition to against your white knight dating agenda.

    Also you contradict yourself in this article.

    The only B word I call women is beautiful, bitches love to be called beautiful.

  5. Yeah yeah, your article is fucking bullshit. Let me explain.

    I was a kissless virgin until I was 18. I “got lucky” and got to second base with 3-4 chicks over the course of a YEAR afterwards, because I hit the gym real hard.

    I got my heart crushed pretty hard by a girl that of course saw me as a friend. Because I was nice. Looking back at it now from a red pill perspective, I could have easily fucked her, if I knew then what I know now. Anyway, that caused me to go find the redpill. I read. I read. I read even more. I read it all. And I started applying it. Know what fucking happened? I got a lot better with chicks. Literally all I ever wanted. I lost my virginity. I was insanely happy.

    Know what didn’t happen? I didn’t cry myself to sleep because the chick I liked was making out with another guy in front of me. Which was me before the red pill.

    Now you did state that it “works” in the way you’ll get chicks for some time, but eventually (maybe even after years) they’ll leave you. Assuming that’s true because “dread game” is bad, and not because you became too much of a doormat, here’s the continuation of my story:

    I came across a girl I clicked with. Well. REAL well. As in, we say the same thing approximately 50 times a day (not even exaggerating). We’re basically the same person but of the opposite sex. It legitimately scares us (and again this is not an exaggeration). It scares the people that know us. I’ve been a little less red pill on her the more we get into our relationship, but I maintain that I am in charge, I maintain dread game if she acts out, I keep frame. I love this girl despite that. And she loves me.

    Know how I got her? I took all of red pill’s advice, that’s how. The pre redpill me would never have gotten her, would be seen as a friend (which is how she sees one guy she knows is in love with her, that guy is WAY nicer than me, so how then if you’re right, is she with me and not with him? ).

    Use the red pill. Use it a lot. Fuck fuck fuck. Fuck to be happy as a man. Fuck until you meet the person like I did. Then choose for yourself what to do with her because you’re experienced enough at that point.

    TRP would call this “oneitis” and remind me that “AWALT”. I keep that in mind. I am ready to lose her at any time. And it’s because of that that the relationship is working. The relationship I never would have had without TRP.

    So don’t claim that it doesn’t work. It made me the happiest I’ve ever been.

    1. I’ve already addressed this in the article but perhaps it bears repeating. Dread game is emotional abuse and you deprive both you and her of the secure, trusting bond that comes with a healthy relationship. It speaks volumes that you’ve already created contingency plans on what to do when you lose her.

      Nobody in a secure relationship does that.

      1. Women are not attracted to men who are not better than them and don’t have other options. Period.

        Their natural instinct is to hitch their wagon to the winningest man possible.

        And they are right to do so.

        Your interpretation has several problems, namely having to do with misunderstanding the purpose of that which offends you.

        The purpose of the casual “bitches,” is to act as a way to continually remind men that women are just women. A fully actualized man (in the shorthand for the new, “Alpha,” though the best men are neither Alpha nor Beta and really transcend the whole concept) does not orient his life around women. His life is about his mission, and a great deal of time in a young man’s life should be oriented toward finding out what that is. All else is a waste of God’s gift to men, which is directed, forceful energy. Force of will.

        The purpose of AWALT is not to embitter men, but to help men to understand the reality that women are people, not princesses, and the nature of women is different than men, and not what most people are openly told. AWALT teaches men to start understanding that to be bitter about the nature of women is to be bitter about the nature of the sun or the moon or the trees. It’s utterly stupid. Women are women, and a person who successfully transforms their life with the self-improvement offered by TRP — which, among other things, proffers The Art of War, Marcus Aurelius, etc. — will outgrow his childish anger.

        What you’re doing is judging ideas by the behavior of their adherents. Not altogether an unreasonable thing to do, but the angry people don’t really ‘get it’ yet. Judge a movement by its leaders first.

        1. Okay, that is the hardest I’ve ever seen someone try to rationalize the term “bitches” as non-misogynistic. I’ve actually read the “How to Manage Your Bitches” post and it says nothing about not orienting your life around women or your life’s mission or transcending alpha and beta or God’s gift to men or force of will. Did you even read that post or are you just imagining that it says what you think it does?

          The post in question is about training women like dogs. That’s why women are referred to as “bitches”. Because the red pill literally encourages you to treat women like dogs. The red pill does not help men understand that “women are people” as you’ve stated, but that women can be treated as animals. As less-than-human. Similarly, AWALT teaches men that all women are to be treated this way without exception. Seriously, do you think that “AWALT” stands for something other than “all women are like that”? If you can’t understand that this is what AWALT literally means then I recommend you consult a dictionary as soon as possible and look up the words “all”, “women”, “are”, “like”, and “that”.

          Also, if an idea causes its adherents to engage in abhorrent behavior then it probably wasn’t a good idea to begin with. But sure, I’ll entertain what you’re saying in your last paragraph. I’ll play your game. Let’s ignore the absolutely deplorable behavior of the red pill rank and file followers just for a minute and judge it by its leaders. What behavior are the leaders engaging in?

          Here are EXACT QUOTES from THE TOP MOD of the red pill:

          “Women are children.” “She is a child.” “It’s an obvious sign that this person has not matured beyond the simplicity of a child.”

          Even judging solely by the ideas of the red pill leaders, it’s a misogynistic movement. I rest my case.

      2. You use dread game (emotional abuse) to combat emotional abuse. It’s the same thing as abundance mentality. It’s not being needy, when you need someone, they can abuse you. Pretty simple

  6. There has been a Feminist war on men that goes back to the 1970’s and turned ugly in the 1980’s. It has recently been escalated by the #meetoo movement. Do I think that sexual harassment doesn’t exist? I not saying it doesn’t, but how many men have had their lives seriously messed up by false claims? Also how many men are unknowingly raising other men’s babies and those who find out too late when they go for the divorce find out that the courts and the law are stacked against them. They are “Divorce Raped” and are forced to pay child support for a child that is not even his. How many women have taken men’s seed from a condom and impregnated themselves against the will of their partner? Then the man is either trapped into marrying, or forced to pay child support for 18 years. If women are truly equal then why are men still paying alimony . Take Johnny Depp , he had to pay Amber Heard 7 million dollars for 15 months of marriage, that is $466,666.66 a month. It is not that Amber is destitute. In 2015 She earned at least $259,876, She was paid $2 million for her role in the 2017 movie Justice League. TRP is the reaction to all of those things. TRP is not only a philosophy about women it is a philosophy about life. There is a lot of TRP that correlates with other self help philosophies in business and life. TRP is also the backlash to the constant men bashing that takes place daily in the media.

  7. TRP isn’t about misogyny. It’s about the truth. You want to operate on a set of false premises that’s your prerogative. At least the TRP guys make an attempt to get at the truth.

    You obviously don’t have the requisite experience to advise men on relationships.

  8. “Models didn’t do anything for me.
    How to win friends was very helpful… In winning friends and being friend-zoned.
    What else?”

    You can hand somebody a set of tools and all the supplies they need but that doesn’t mean they know how to build a house with it…

  9. Steven Zawila (the author of this article) has basically negative sex appeal. This is grade A “blind leading the blind” material. Just look at his profile pic (he even has on a little undershirt lmao.) I’m guessing this ‘dating guru’ has been intimate with under 10 women in his entire life. I wasn’t even going to comment on this until I read his profile where he explains he’s a dating coach (DOUBLE LOL)

    I think what this guy is missing is that he believes that men and women are actually equal in the sexual marketplace. He doesn’t seem to understand that the average woman has sexual relationships flung at her at prolly a 100x greater rate than the average man. This is why ‘dread game’ is an important part of a healthy long lasting relationship with a high value woman… she has to know her man is as valuable as she is, and there’s no better proof of that than showing a willingness to leave the relationship if it isn’t beneficial to him. Women do this all the time, so why shouldn’t men?

    As a side note, the author of this article also seems to misunderstand what dread game actually is (big surprise!). Not letting women get emotionally abusive or high and mighty about her participation in the relationship by showing a willingness to leave is not abuse or misogyny; it’s called setting healthy boundaries. And to pretend that women don’t test their men (even subconsciously) is a little sophomoric and speaks volumes about this ‘dating guru’. It shows also in one of his replies to a previous comment where he says it’s insecure and ’emotional abuse’ to have ‘contingency plans’ aka been a high value person that can actually go out and get some. It’s just so childish to preach this kind of advice. It’s like saying a good looking woman who goes to the gym is emotionally abusing her guy and that she should get fat and ugly so she lacks ‘contingencies’.

    Steven Zawila even admits he doesn’t have any experience, so why is he writing a 3000 word article about that in which he has no experience??? Lol, he might as well say “I’m not a doctor, but I play one on TV. You have cancer!”

    1. Sid, please educate yourself on the “ad hominem” logical fallacy before commenting again. About half of your comment commits this fallacy. (Also, LOL at “negative sex appeal”. Looks like the women I’ve dated just never got the memo.)

      I’ve already addressed this in my article and other comments. Dread game is emotional abuse. It deprives both you and her of the secure, trusting bond that comes with a stable relationship. In a stable relationship, both partners are dedicated to making it work. That’s why a relationship where you are constantly reminding her that you’re willing to leave is, by definition, unstable. For the same reasons, a relationship where one party is making secret one-sided contingency plans is also by definition, unstable.

      Sid, you call me childish but is there anything less manly than running and hiding from an issue with your partner? Giving them the cold shoulder and ignoring everything in hopes that they come around? Ignoring her and hoping that she’s needy enough to want to ignore what’s making her feel unloved?? That’s what dread game is.

      There are better ways to show your worth in a relationship. Being open and authentic. Showing a willingness to be vulnerable. Paying attention to the things that she cares about. Making her feel loved in the ways that matter to her.

      The fact that “the average woman has sexual relationships flung at her at prolly [sic] a 100x greater rate than the average man” does not change this. If she’s willing to leave a committed relationship with you for some random stranger on the street who flirts with her, then you probably weren’t worth much to her in the first place.

      Finally, you’ve performed an incredible amount of mental gymnastics to arrive at the conclusion that I have no dating experience. In my response to Bill W. when I said “I don’t claim to have any level of experience”, I meant I do not proclaim any specific amount of experience. For you to believe otherwise, you would have had to ignore the very next sentence where I said “The results I’ve helped my clients achieve speak for themselves”. You would have also had to have ignored every other post written on this blog where I include personal stories of my experiences. Congratulations on arriving at a logically incorrect conclusion despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

      Mr Sid V, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  10. White knights will always be white knights .

    Low status beta male

    Stay in your lane

    Calling yourself a “dating guru”

    We got 17 year old life coaches nowadays smh

    1. Wow. I’ve never seen that before. My heart goes out to that guy. He didn’t deserve anything that happened to him.

      HOWEVER, this does not validate The Red Pill in any way. TRP is centered around hatred of women, and a wife backstabbing her husband does not justify misogyny any more than a husband backstabbing his wife justifies misandry.

    1. What about not practicing misogyny at all?

      I checked out the article you linked and practically all of it is dubious. It’s facts and figures comes from sources of questionable validity such as “the-spearhead.com” which does not exist, as well as other WordPress and Blogspot websites. Many of its figures lack any citation, and I can only assume they were made up on the spot. In contrast, my facts and figures come from reputable sources such as the 2005 experiment by Gregory Berns of Emory University. I’ve even cited David L. Mech–the founder of the terms “alpha” and “beta”–disproving those very same terms.

  11. Hey Steven. Just…thank you for this. I stumbled in here from reddit and now I can leave with a little more faith in humanity then I started out with. It’s really nice seeing men supporting other men in a healthy non-toxic way. The world needs more of you.

  12. Thanks a lot man. This article really hit home.I found the red pill after a really bad break up and I felt like I have discovered some secret.I really had started seeing women as objects.Instead of being genuine, I always had the red pill in mind while talking to women. I actually remember being happy I found the red pill.

    People from the red pill community will call this blog as bullshit.How do I know which ideology is right?(Both are really convincing!) I really am confused.

    How do I get all that out of my head? Could you recommend any good books other than those you mentioned?

    1. Hi, confused! TBH, when I first stumbled across the red pill I was afraid that all of it was true. What if we really have been lied to all our lives? What if women really do prefer men who treat them as objects? What if the red pillers got it right and everybody else is getting it wrong?

      The red pill has an insidious way of preying upon your insecurities. Even if you know intellectually that what they’re saying does not logically make sense, it has a way of getting under your skin. It’s like if someone came up to you and said “You know everyone just tolerates you, right?” They’re probably just full of hot air…but now you’re thinking about it the next time you interact with your friends and family.

      Looking back, what helped me out was taking a look at the relationships of people around me. My parents are happily married and my dad never had to use ‘dread game’ on my mom. Some of my friends are also married and they never resort to using the red pill. Instead, they hold each other in mutual respect even when the going gets tough.

      Some other readings I would recommend:

      How to Be an Adult in Relationships by David Richo and Kathlyn Hendricks
      Rising Strong by Brene Brown (great book on getting back up when life knocks you down)
      https://markmanson.net/relationship-advice (if you read just one article on relationships, read this one!!)

  13. Mr. Confused,

    Why are you trying to forget what you learned at TRP? There is no problem seeing women as objects in the right situations, like dating etc. I’m women and, being heterosexual, see men as objects when talking about getting laid. Respect all the women you deal with in the daily bases but , please, don’t feel bad for lusting after some of this people. This is conservative bullshit trying to pass as a good thing. You are not a bad person because you want sex and relationships.

    1. Seeing women as objects is harmful because it is dehumanizing. It legitimizes treating women in ways that no human should ever be treated. “Psychological abuse” simply becomes “dread game”, while “rape” or “sexual assualt” becomes “pushing past her last minute resistance”.

        1. Well, I checked them out but I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be seeing. I especially don’t see anything that justifies the misogyny found in The Red Pill. Can you tell me what I’m supposed to take away from these two links?

          1. No man ended up lonely, loveless or sexless for being mean or a bad person. Awful personality never decreases a man’s sexual success: it actually boosts it.

          2. OK, I see what you are trying to say now but I can’t agree with it. In the entire history of mankind, no man ended up lonely for being an asshole? Not one?? Ever??? That is an absurd premise.

            I want to point out the double standard in the second link you posted. The second link in your comment shows an example of a woman backstabbing her husband. Sadly, there are instances of women doing this. However, there are also instances of men who backstab their girlfriends or wives. If an instance of a woman backstabbing a man justifies misogyny (which I see that you believe) then an instance of a man backstabbing a woman also justifies misandry (which I see that you do NOT believe). Otherwise you’re just holding a double standard.

            And now the first link. It starts off trying to say something about “women on men’s personalities/manners/racism/height/etc…” by linking to Imgur screenshots and NOT actual studies. It then says that looks are just as important to women as to men.

            Well, why shouldn’t they be? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If I showed you 20 pictures of random women and told you nothing about their personalities, could you honestly tell me that all 20 were equally physically attractive to you? For you to have your own physical standards of women while criticizing women for having their own physical standards of men is hypocrisy.

            Next, it claims that “assholes and jerks get the most sex and most sexual partners”. To do this, it cites studies that looked at the behaviors of teens and undergrads. There’s the flaw–1) teens are notorious for making bad decisions, 2) students who aren’t bullies tend to be more focused on their studies rather than gaining a high number of sexual partners, and 3) students are not representative of the population as a whole.

            Finally, it asserts twice more that physical appearances are important. I’ve already addressed that above.

            “A person”, you’re welcome to comment but I urge you to stay away from these types of toxic websites. The more you go looking for information to reinforce a misogynic worldview, the more you’ll find it—even if it’s completely illogical. For a more wholesome view on relationships, go check out https://markmanson.net/relationship-advice. It includes advice from almost 1,500 people about what makes relationships work, and none of them involve being a jerk towards the people you love.

  14. Thank you. For proving to me that there are still sane ADULTS who exist in this already miserable planet.
    Pain and power dynamic had never been an existing factor in romance. It was the greed and hatred and delusions of both parties, along with bad fate and luck, that had drive those events in to fruition. Some people just don’t seem to understand the true definition to be loved and to love, because they can’t even fulfill the hole in their heart and the underlying feeling that they must be ‘powerful and significant’.
    This stupidity needs to stop. This is why feminazis exist and why men gets the hate. It’s an ouroboros of hate between both genders who want power and dominion over the other instead of peace, love and harmony, as human beings SHOULD BE STRIVING FOR.

    1. Hi pyromancedrake, I appreciate the compliment but I can’t agree with your comment. There isn’t an “ouroboros of hate between both genders who want power and dominion over the other”. Many women want to find a great man who complements their lives. It’s overwhelmingly men perpetuating hatred against women, not the other way around. As HuffPo puts it, “It’s not strangers, friends or acquaintances who pose the biggest threat to women’s lives. It’s the men they date and marry.” That’s why this website exists. It’s my way of telling the world that hatred toward women is NOT okay.

  15. B-b-but dread game is emotional abuse and yer a misogynist. Wahh red pill is evil!!!

    Lol like women arent out there stringing guys along for attention and free shit, like girlfriends arent out there fucking around on their SOs, like wives arent out there dragging their husbands through divorce court and raping them of their resources. Women use every trick in the book to manipulate men. They play victim, lie, use sex and various other underhanded tactics to get what they want. Even their very appearance is a lie. Make up, push up bras, high heels, fake tan, fake hair, fake nails, fake tits, fake ass…. all to get your dumb ass to believe that theyre more attractive than they really are so youre more willing to give into their vapid and childish demands. The red pill is nothing more than a tool for men to level the playing field and the only reason youre against it is because youre some moralizing finger wagging white knight whose desperately clutching on to outdated and inneffective tactics that no ones buying anymore.

    1. Hello, Dolan. Let’s break down your comment and show the error in your reasoning, shall we?

      You’ve first started off by doing a rather caricaturistic portrayal of me. This is an ad hominem logical fallacy. Since you’ve begun your argument with a logical fallacy, everything else you’ve said already stands on weak legs. But we’ll continue nonetheless.

      Next, you’ve made the claim that women backstab men and that the red pill “is nothing more than a tool for men to level the playing field”. Sadly, there do exist instances of women doing this. However, there are also instances of men who backstab their girlfriends or wives. Here is where your argument falls apart. If an instance of a woman backstabbing a man justifies misogyny (which I see that you do believe) then an instance of a man backstabbing a woman should also justify misandry–otherwise you’re holding a double standard. Since you refer to the red pill as merely “a tool for men” BUT you refer to women as being “fake” and having “vapid and childish demands”, it’s clear that you believe in the former but NOT the latter. Thus, your argument collapses under the weight of its own hypocrisy.

      Finally, you conclude your argument the same way you began it—with another ad hominem logical fallacy. That is, by referring to me as a “moralizing finger wagging white knight”. Perhaps this is the ultimate concession on your part. Since you don’t actually have any logical counterpoints against my arguments, you might as well attack the person making those arguments, right?

      1. Your whole article is a strawman of redpill principles because you do not understand them at all, i had to hold in a few chuckles at very infantile understandings of complex principles – basically just immerse yourself in the terminology and processes before you shoot off at the mouth. You started at a false premise, a lot of RP stuff is about fixing the Man, not the woman. They’re the byproduct of being a successful man. It levels the playing field of manipulation in our rather gynocentric culture. This article is just white knight assertions arguing against things you dont understand. If you did actually understand the idealogies of trp/mrp with any real grasp its probably causing you cognitive dissonance and collapsing your worldview (see anger stage of trp process) Dolan’s caricature was spot on. Were you raised by a single mother at all? I find the biggest white knights are the products of such familial arrangements.

        1. Hello, Intrepid. I find your comment self-contradictory and logically inconsistent. Since TRP is also self-contradictory and logically inconsistent, I’m not at all surprised. Let me break it down for you.

          You’ve asserted that I do NOT understand TRP, saying that I have “very infantile understandings of complex principles”. You’ve simultaneously asserted that I DO understand TRP, saying that it is “causing you cognitive dissonance and collapsing your worldview”. See where your argument falls apart? They can’t possibly both be true at the same time.

          So pray tell, Intrepid, which is it?

  16. Hi Steven,
    So red pillers they say that a woman will choose to divorce and break that secure, trusting bond and fall in love for a man that is more successful and beautiful and will abuse and play those games with her.
    You think this is nonsense but how you actually prove it wrong aside from your clients’ success stories?

    1. Hi Alex. Go out and talk to some of the people you know who are already in long-term happy relationships. Ask them what the keys are to their happy relationships. Ask your friends. Ask your parents. Even if you are a quadriplegic, you will still have enough functional limbs to count how many times they’ll tell you to use “dread game” or any of the other crap that the red pill tells you to do.

      1. Sorry, but there is a big difference in what people say and what they do. And if you ask people about private topics such as relationships they often not tell you the truth. So this method of research you kindly asked me to do is unfortunately invalid. Do you have better research?

        1. Alex. Let’s break down our conversation thus far. You began by asking me how to prove the red pill wrong. I’ve provided a way for you to do that. You have chosen NOT to do that and INSTEAD have decided to dismiss it as invalid while providing ZERO evidence to back up your own assertion and nothing but pure SPECULATION that EVERY person you talk to would lie about what makes a happy relationship.

          You’re welcome to leave comments Alex, but I expect more effort from you than merely questioning and dismissing my assertions as invalid while providing no evidence to back up your own claims.

  17. Thanks, Steven,
    Sorry, this seems trivial, but let me explain my assertion. I did not say that every person would lie, please read carefully, probably some will. I am sure you do not live in wonderland where people never lied to you. But there is more, what people want is not static, if you ask people what they want today, the next day they may not want the same. We are talking about breakups, do you think that people wanted the same when they did break up as when they were happy together? The answers may depend on culture where you live, on the kind of people you meet. This way of proving that red pill is nonsense is just so unreliable.
    This is why i asked you if you have better evidence, you did have evidence before you call something nonsense, right? I do not ask you to search evidence for me, but before you write an article on something being nonsense, did you search it for yourself to make sure it is really nonsense? Or was it just something you don’t like?

    1. Hi Alex. I apologize if I’ve come across as harsh or facetious. I’m sorry. I’ll tone it down. To answer your question, people do often end up wanting different things over time and that is a reason why many couples break up. It’s true that it may be different across cultures/where you live/etc. However, even if you were to ask 20 different couples of different ages across different cultures, you’ll never hear people say that the red pill or “dread game” is what keeps them together and happy.

      Here’s a good link. Blogger Mark Manson asked almost 1,500 people what the keys to their happy relationships were, and the results were all overwhelmingly similar. None of them were about following red pill advice.

      As far as evidence goes, you’ll have to explain what you’re looking for. I’ve already explained that the concepts of “Alpha males” and “Beta males” were proven false by the very same person who popularized those terms in the first place. If that’s not sufficient for you then what exactly are you looking for?

  18. Hey Steven,
    I was thinking about that survey. We asked 1500 people and got 13 rules that they follow and have a 10+ years long term relationship, but what it proves actually? There may be another 1500 people who followed the same rules and it did not work for them. Why are we asking only happy couples and not asking those that was unhappy together?
    You are told your whole life that you need to have 10+ years LTR and marry. But then you are not told ever that there is a good chance that a divorce can ruin your whole life. This is why it is called the red pill, because it tells you the truth that people will not tell you for different reasons. Same goes with breakup reasons.
    So, the main focus of red pill is not on having happy LTR at all cost, but instead to stop ruining lives of so many men with divorce even after happy LTR. That even 10 years relationship is still temporary and can break anytime even if you follow all the rules. You have to be prepared for both LTR and breakup.

    1. Hey Alex. I find it interesting that you hold my ideas to a much higher level of scrutiny than you do the red pill ideas. Is that because my ideas are simply something you do not like? Perhaps there may be another 1,500 people who followed the same rules and it did not work out for them, but again that is mere speculation with no evidence.

      The red pill portrays itself as the truth but as I’ve already explained, it is overwhelmingly false. I’ve already explained that “alpha males” and “beta males” were proven false by Dr. David L. Mech, who is the very same person that originally popularized those terms. It’s not a secret at all that you want to marry the right person so that you won’t get a divorce. I mean, it’s literally part of the wedding vows that a marriage is intended to be a lifelong union. The red pill is also self-contradictory, claiming that women are not smart enough to use logic and yet are simultaneously smart enough to plot secret conspiracies against men. Those cannot both be true at the same time. Given all of these falsehoods, the red pill cannot possibly be considered anything remotely close to “the truth”.

      The red pill is not about saving men from divorce. The main focus of the red pill is hatred against women. Plain and simple. As I’ve already explained, to prove this you don’t need to look any further than the sidebar where it refers to women as “bitches”. The red pill makes the world a worse place for both men and women. For women, because it perpetuates hatred against them. And for men, because it teaches them misogyny instead of actual love advice.

      Again, I must ask what evidence you are willing to accept that the red pill is false. I’ve referenced a study that illustrates how the opinions of those around us change our perception of reality, even if those opinions do not make sense. I’ve linked an article where ~1,500 people show the keys to their relationships had nothing to do with the red pill. I’ve even explained that “alpha” and “beta” were proven false by the same person behind those terms. If all of this is insufficient for you, then exactly what evidence are you willing to accept that the red pill is false?

  19. Thank you for your reply, Steven,
    We are discussing your article therefore i am more interested in what you have to say. If i study other ideas than i would probably go discuss them elsewhere.
    Your speculation is that red pill rules are nonsense and you wanted to prove that with the survey. But if 1500 people have some 13 rules does not mean that these rules will work for everybody or that all other rules will not work. This survey just does not prove your speculation.

    Same with the rest, even if Alpha/Beta was proven false for wolves does not mean that it is false for humans, humans are not wolves. Plotting secret conspiracies is harder than using logic? Not necessarily. Someone called women “bitches” in some sidebar and therefore everyone is now haters? Really? This is also an unsupported speculation.

    What evidence do i want? The best you got. It is very hard to tell you beforehand what is acceptable. I do not require you to have evidence, you are free to believe things even without evidence (which is religion), but science is based on evidence, and what you got so far is weak in that regard. So far, to me, your assertions look just like speculations. So our conversation is like speculation vs counter-speculation. But just my or your speculations are not sufficient to call someone ideas nonsense or call them haters and such, right?

    1. Alex, you’re welcome to refer to my ideas as “speculation”. You’re allowed to call them whatever you like. I’ve backed up my ideas with studies performed by scientists. You have not.

      But, hey. You’re totally allowed to call my ideas “speculation” if it makes you feel better.

  20. Thank you for writing this. It’s nice knowing it’s coming from a man and knowing there’s still some good men out there. Reading the red pill makes me sick, they really do see women as sexual objects. I’m not ok with feminists who act like all men are rapists and I can’t stand men’s rights guys who view women all women as damaged goods to be mistreated. It’s awful.

  21. Steven,

    After just watching the Red Pill movie/propaganda film, I’m so thankful to find your response to the movement. After watching the film, I wanted to further research the RPM, aiming to better understand its followers. My search for information has led to to some horribly dark corners of the internet over the past few days. Frankly, I almost regret that whole thing.

    Your piece reminds me that the RPM is not mainstream and that logical, thoughtful, and self-aware people, specifically men, will not simply accept such hateful ideas as facts. Even your replies to obvious trolling efforts are comforting. Thank you for reminding me that women have male allies.

    I’m choosing to end my RPM research adventure on this high note.

    1. Jane,

      I appreciate your kind words. Your comment is a refreshing breath of fresh air among all the flak that I’ve been receiving for writing this. Seeing replies such as yours makes it all worth it.

  22. Wow, this article is total bullshit. I’ve never this amount of horseshit ever. You do realize you agree with the red pill, right? In that it’s all about looks, money, and status?

    By the “way they present themselves” thing. Could just admit you agree with the red pill about lms being all that matters, and that a hot guy can do nearly anything they wish.

    So all of these red pill things, about most of the so called “fair sex” are invalid? About how most of them are garbage, and other garbage is how to pump and dump, and to get anywhere in life at all?

    All of these stories they have, mgtow and r/theredpill both, and irl evidence just doesn’t count, because you say so? Ok. You also haven’t proved red pill wrong at all.

    You’ve done nothing but ad hominem too. To they and trp followers. Nothing but a entire article of it. Even if it is abuse, it still works, combined with lms.

    Can’t wait until I’m a hot guy. Then I’ll be in power. I’ll be in charge. I can then be the biggest asshole there is, and still get everything.

    1. Thomas, you do realize that bulls and horses are different animals, right? How on Earth can my article be both “bullshit” and “horseshit” at the same time??

      I did a Ctrl + F to look for where I said that “it’s all about looks, money, and status” and found nothing. Neither did I find where I said “way they present themselves”. I’m not sure why you’re putting quotation marks around words I didn’t say, but I can unequivocally say that I do NOT agree with the red pill.

      In addition, I never said that “these stories they have…just doesn’t count because [I] say so”. Instead, what I’ve done is provide studies by academic sources backing up why you don’t take advice from the red pill. The words you’ve put in my mouth would taste terrible without all the salt you’ve given me.

      On that note, I can only conclude that you have no idea what “ad hominem” even means, seeing as how you’ve incorrectly applied it to my argument. My article talks about: myself, what the red pill is, what the red pill says, academic studies, and myself some more. I have not dedicated my “entire article” to personal attacks against red pill followers.

      In your comment, you flat out admitted that the red pill is abuse. Thanks for proving my point.

  23. Quite glad I came across this article while searching Google for “want relationship scared red pill true”. I’m in a LTR and have one previous marriage that lasted 13 years. The final 5 years of which were spent fighting for the relationship after her affair. Finally realizing that I wasn’t dealing with a sane individual, I ended it.

    You are skillful in language as well. Proper all around it seems. This definitely puts your article and comments in a brighter light.

    Bravo

  24. In his September 18 comment above, the original poster says, “what I’ve done is provide studies by academic sources backing up why you don’t take advice from the red pill”. Where are the citations of sources proving that Red Pill thinking can be verified as false?

    Thanks for the interesting in-depth discussion.

  25. Applying ‘dreadgame’ in TRP is properly recommended ONLY in response to difficult and often disrespectful behavior. It is utilized as a means of behavior modification when simply investing more in the relationship or assertive communication will not be effective.

    It is designed to make women(it would apply equally to Men) take another look at your worth and the relationship and decide if their behavior will lead to losing a person of value. Applying dread is a last resort strategy which either works and improves the relationship or sets the groundwork for breakup and exploring new relationships.

    Some Women apply dread instinctively, in TRP parlance they call it “branch swinging” when a woman decides she is going to dump a guy and doesn’t want to be alone, so before breaking up, she flirts with other guys, setting up potential future relationships before the current one has ended.

    I don’t find “dreadgame” as ‘evil’ as you make it out to be. I have employed it instinctively when the women I was with was ignoring me (turning her back) and giving her full attention to another man when we were on a date at a dance club. Instead of trying to get her attention or acting butt-hurt I left her to her conversation and went to dance with the hottest woman in the club. My date eventually found me later and was even more attracted to me (and probably jealous of the other woman). We continued to date for some time and have sex after that.

    Prior to TRP this sort of test/behavior would have upset me and I probably would have said or did something that would have destroyed all attraction she had for me.
    I give full credit to TRP for teaching me how to handle that situation and applying dread was beneficial to me without being dehumanizing.

    1. Hi John. Dread game is never suitable. If she is being difficult or disrespectful toward you, then you need to sit down together and have an adult conversation with her about it. In an adult conversation, the both of you work as a team to solve the problem. And if you find yourself in a relationship where that 100% is not possible then you leave. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

      On that note, dread game is evil. When you use dread game, you’re preying on her insecurities in order to get her to do what you want. That’s not cool at all. By using dread game, you’re actively ignoring the issues at hand and hoping that she’s insecure enough to overlook whatever was bothering her in the first place. It’s self-contradictory. You argue that employing dread game shows you’re a person of value but it proves exactly the opposite. Using dread game shows that you don’t give a damn about what’s bothering her and that you’re not willing to work through any issues together as a team. Women don’t want to be with a man like that.

      As I’ve explained in my article, dread game “works” in the short-term since it does appear to give positive results temporarily (for example, if you’re dancing with her for one night at a dance club.) And as I’ve made clear in the previous paragraph, women don’t want to be with a man who uses dread game long term because it proves that you just do not care about her feelings.

      You give TRP credit for teaching you how to handle that situation. John, there is absolutely zero good advice in TRP that you won’t find in
      another published book such as Models by Mark Manson or Mate by Tucker Max. Moreover, TRP is loaded with women-hating and misogyny. If you disagree then you need look no further than the TRP sidebar where they refer to women as “bitches”. And as I’ve explained in the article, the people you surround yourself with affect your very perception of reality. It’s psychologically impossible to follow TRP and not have its misogyny seep into your subconscious.

      John, I urge you to spit out The Red Pill.

  26. Steven,

    The rules on your blog appear to be you have to approve comments before they are published. I don’t appreciate censorship or accept a forum where you have authority to pick and choose which comments are published so this will be a very short conversation.

    Based on your response I believe you lack the sophistication and empathy to properly read women in general, and particularly the woman in my nuanced example.

    Far from ‘hurting her feelings’ I proved that I was capable of attracting other women and I wasn’t going to compete for her attention. She appreciated how I handled the situation and told me afterwards.

    You have lost credibililty with me by painting all behavior and tactics with such broad strokes and by the superficial rush to judgement you make without understanding nuanced situations.

    This was our second date and she harbored no ill will towards me. However her attention and attraction was far greater for this other man at the time than it was for me hence she was ignoring me.

    Your blog and particularly your comprehension and response to my post
    appears prima facie to be superficial and immature. “Evil” and “Right and Wrong” when discussing gender relationships is a very simplistic and childish way to consider such complex interactions.

    Based on your writing I beleive you lack the sophistication and empathy to properly read women and situations.

    While I see many shortcomings on the TRP forums, you have nothing of value to offer on your blog except interesting titles.

    I will leave you to your marketing because you are hardly someone I would ever seek advice from. If you want to see much higher quality sophisticated articles I suggest you read girlschase dot com.

    1. Hello John. That is true. All comments on this blog need to be manually approved by an admin before they appear on the website. However, nothing is censored. All comments are approved regardless of who posts them or what they say, even the ones that simply hurl insults and offer nothing of value. John, you should also be aware that any WP admin has the ability to delete or edit any comment at any time–meaning that every blog and forum you participate in has the same censorship capabilities that you complain about here.

      The irony about you complaining about censorship is that TRP actually is censored. If you ever post anything questioning the validity of TRP you are almost instantly banned from that forum. Yet, you complain about perceived censorship on my site while accepting actual censorship on TRP. That’s a hypocritical double standard on your part.

      John, you saying that I lack sophistication and empathy is an ad hominem logical fallacy. On that note, I did a Ctrl + F to look for where I said ‘hurting her feelings’ and found nothing of the sort. I’m honestly not sure why you put that in quotes. In addition, I find it hilarious that you rushed to defend your story about dancing in a bar with a woman–telling me that I made a “superficial rush to judgement…without understanding nuanced situations”–when I actually did not refute your story at all. Seriously! If you think otherwise then go back and re-read my original comment. I devoted less than one whole sentence talking about your story. It’s funny how you call my comprehension “superficial and immature” when you outright imagined arguments in my original comment that never even existed.

      I find it equally baffling that you claim my use of the word “evil” is “simplistic and childish”. John, you are the one who originally used the word “evil” in your original comment. Your exact words are “I don’t find “dreadgame” as ‘evil’ as you make it out to be.” I used the word “evil” because I was quoting you. What point were you even trying to make there, John? Are you trying to call yourself “simplistic and childish”?

      Once again, you claiming that I lake sophistication and empathy is an ad hominem logical fallacy. Since you’ve said this twice in your comment, I felt it was appropriate for me to point this out twice in my reply.

      By the way, you’ve dismissed the flaws in TRP by simply saying that you “see many shortcomings on the TRP forums”, which is a funny way of hand-waving that fact that TRP actively promotes misogyny and rape and hatred against women. If you think otherwise then, once again, I refer you to the TRP’s own sidebar where they refer to women as “bitches”.

      Anyway, thanks for leaving me to my marketing. Are you trying to dread game me? Because it really doesn’t make any difference to me whether or not you follow my website. Before you commented, I didn’t even know you existed. In a few more hours, I will have forgotten about you and once again be unaware that you even exist. And I’ll have lost nothing of value.

      Finally, I want everyone reading this comment to understand that I’ve politely addressed every point you made in both of your comments, John. You have failed to extend the same courtesy to me. Instead, you decided to write nine whole paragraphs hurling insults and refuting arguments that I never even made. Perhaps that’s the ultimate concession on your part, John. After all, if you can’t logically refute arguments that I did make then you might as well refute imaginary arguments that I did not make. Isn’t that right?

  27. I’ll just get the ad hominem attacks out of the way:
    – you seem very argumentative for someone who recommends Dale Carnegie
    – first sexual experience just over a month ago, and now has enough experience to denounce an entire subculture (and being in a non-sexual relationship is not rocket science)
    – undershirt / body shape (which meant you ‘picked and chose’ when you read Models, I guess that’s me being authentic)

    – you keep referencing How To Win Friends and Influence People which is a very inauthentic way to behave (e.g. pretend to know everything about plants by listening intently, then you can become a ‘great conversationalist’) – this goes against the premise of Models which tells you to be authentic (which references / recommends No More Mr Nice Guy and the goal of being an integrated male)… this is actually a fault of Mark for recommending Dale. BUT Dale does teach you other aspects about making a good first impression. So even though a book doesn’t tell you to pick and choose, any rational male is able to ‘take the good and leave the bad’

    – plate spinning is just a metaphor – no one sees them as literal plates as your reaction implies
    – asking what’s wrong implies that women say what they mean, and mean what they say which you don’t need a peer-reviewed journal to figure out (e.g. you: what’s wrong? her: I’m fine…)
    – hypergamy is neither not good or bad, it just is… whether women act on that impulse is another story. Self-improvement is using hypergamy to your advantage, to dismiss it as non-sense can be akin to saying that love is enough to conquer all just because you asked her out first (even if you’re lacking in the traits that make up male hypergamy) – I understand that’s my argument, not yours, I just can’t see how hypergamy isn’t the default behaviour for many people
    – 20% – 80% (the Pareto Principle) is just a natural phenomenon that occurs in many events relating to inputs / outputs that just happened to also apply to sexual strategy
    – shit tests are nothing more than behavioural filters (e.g. just a way to either confirm or disprove a certain behaviour)
    – alpha fucks / beta bucks was coined by someone who does have a degree in behavioural psychology
    – on alpha wolves – it was debunked on the premise that being alpha was conflated with winning contests / battles. But, if it has more to do with breeding potential, the previous definition alpha still holds (since ‘alpha’ men do in-fact have more breeding opportunities). If you want to get meta, those ‘alpha’ behaviours only seem to occur under human intervention, therefore, couldn’t you say the same for actual humans?

    – the red pill encourages you to take a hard look at yourself which is why hypergamy is one of its main tenets – it helps you understand which parts of yourself you need to improve. Because, I agree, people can read the red pill and blame others but you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater by not acknowledging the self-analysis aspect of it (e.g. if I’m poor, and hypergamy dictates that I should increase my resources, then I have to change something). Note: I actually dislike the blaming aspect of red pill as much as you do
    – positive masculinity and long-term healthy relationships IS the end-goal for red pill (if you’ve read pillar ‘red pill’ books like Rational Male / Book of Pook) – the problem is when you give up ‘red pill’ behaviour in place of more ‘endearing’ actions like constant texting and show how much you care (example in Models) and wonder why she doesn’t call back
    – Models is a fundamentally red pill book… which talks about hypergamy (under different terms) and the act of being polarising yet you think that red pill as a whole is ‘flat out emotional abuse’
    – you seem to have a problem with the forum… of course, you’re going to run into different people / ideas… it’s impossible to agree with everything. That’s like saying you have to agree with everything Tucker Max says even though most of his earlier books would be extremely ’misogynistic’ by your standards
    – isn’t it contradictory to say that you should ‘never take advice from the red pill. Ever,’ when you said there was ‘some good gems of advice’? What if you only found about healthy eating and abundance mentality from the red pill – it’s not up for you or me to say where people should get their information (since I would never have discovered Models if it wasn’t for the red pill)

    – I would agree that dread game does have the potential for negative emotional ramifications
    – I will also agree that last-minute resistance can also have the potential to push boundaries too far
    – yes, using bitch is unnecessary

    – conventional PUAs (e.g. direct female manipulation) and positive masculinity (and by extension vulnerability) follow two very different mindsets / behaviours (note: the latter denounces the former very explicitly) but you lump them together under one umbrella term. Surely, you have the capacity to separate the two since Models is by red pill standards, a red pill book.

    – I guess it’s just a misunderstanding in semantics, your reaction to certain words, and your black and white approach to something you think is categorically black and white
    – I don’t agree with the article, but you do have balls for writing it…
    – I don’t even expect you to agree with me because as good ol’ Dale said, ‘nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right’

    1. Interesting comment. Let’s discuss.

      “– you seem very argumentative for someone who recommends Dale Carnegie

      – first sexual experience just over a month ago, and now has enough experience to denounce an entire subculture (and being in a non-sexual relationship is not rocket science)

      – undershirt / body shape (which meant you ‘picked and chose’ when you read Models, I guess that’s me being authentic)”

      Your points 1-3 are, in fact, ad hominem logical fallacies. I guess it’s redundant for me to point that out when you’ve already done so. Also, I never said that my first sexual experience was just over a month ago. That’s just when I happened to write the article. If you’re going to use my own articles in ad hominem attacks against me, at least read what I’ve written, will you??

      – you keep referencing How To Win Friends and Influence People which is a very inauthentic way to behave (e.g. pretend to know everything about plants by listening intently, then you can become a ‘great conversationalist’) – this goes against the premise of Models which tells you to be authentic (which references / recommends No More Mr Nice Guy and the goal of being an integrated male)… this is actually a fault of Mark for recommending Dale. BUT Dale does teach you other aspects about making a good first impression. So even though a book doesn’t tell you to pick and choose, any rational male is able to ‘take the good and leave the bad’

      I agree that HTWFaIP feels a bit inauthentic at times. It’s good for learning soft skills but it is best read in light of what Mark Manson recommends about authenticity. That’s why I recommend reading BOTH books.

      I disagree that “any rational male is able to take the good and leave the bad” when it comes to TRP, for two reasons already mentioned in my article. 1) You need to already have the frame of reference to know what constitutes good vs bad advice, but you wouldn’t have that if you didn’t already know what the good advice already was, and 2) the “bad” seeps in on an unconscious level, even if (and especially when) you think it doesn’t

      – plate spinning is just a metaphor – no one sees them as literal plates as your reaction implies

      I do not imply that women are literal pieces of kitchenware

      – asking what’s wrong implies that women say what they mean, and mean what they say which you don’t need a peer-reviewed journal to figure out (e.g. you: what’s wrong? her: I’m fine…)

      Asking what’s wrong shows that you care about what’s bothering her, and it’s the most direct and effective way to find out what is wrong

      – hypergamy is neither not good or bad, it just is… whether women act on that impulse is another story. Self-improvement is using hypergamy to your advantage, to dismiss it as non-sense can be akin to saying that love is enough to conquer all just because you asked her out first (even if you’re lacking in the traits that make up male hypergamy) – I understand that’s my argument, not yours, I just can’t see how hypergamy isn’t the default behaviour for many people

      I never said hypergamy was bad, nor that it isn’t the default behavior for many people. I said that “women can’t be blanket generalized as hypergamous” (exact quote) because such a broad generalization is useless at best and misleading at worst.

      – 20% – 80% (the Pareto Principle) is just a natural phenomenon that occurs in many events relating to inputs / outputs that just happened to also apply to sexual strategy

      Yes, the Pareto Principle is in fact a thing. However, you’ve applied it to sexual strategy without any evidence.

      – shit tests are nothing more than behavioural filters (e.g. just a way to either confirm or disprove a certain behaviour)

      If you say so. But if the goal of TRP is “long-term healthy relationships” like you claim, then I’d rather be with someone who knows how to communicate effectively rather than someone who regularly resorts to such tests

      – alpha fucks / beta bucks was coined by someone who does have a degree in behavioural psychology

      I’m not sure how his educational background is related to the validity of the phrase itself

      – on alpha wolves – it was debunked on the premise that being alpha was conflated with winning contests / battles. But, if it has more to do with breeding potential, the previous definition alpha still holds (since ‘alpha’ men do in-fact have more breeding opportunities). If you want to get meta, those ‘alpha’ behaviours only seem to occur under human intervention, therefore, couldn’t you say the same for actual humans?

      Sure. There’s nothing wrong with having more “breeding opportunities”. The issue arises when those breeding opportunities occur through the dehumanization and violation of women.

      – the red pill encourages you to take a hard look at yourself which is why hypergamy is one of its main tenets – it helps you understand which parts of yourself you need to improve. Because, I agree, people can read the red pill and blame others but you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater by not acknowledging the self-analysis aspect of it (e.g. if I’m poor, and hypergamy dictates that I should increase my resources, then I have to change something). Note: I actually dislike the blaming aspect of red pill as much as you do

      There’s nothing wrong with self-improvement. However, the red pill teaches misogyny and hatred against women in addition to everything else which invalidates it as a tool for self-improvement.

      – positive masculinity and long-term healthy relationships IS the end-goal for red pill (if you’ve read pillar ‘red pill’ books like Rational Male / Book of Pook) – the problem is when you give up ‘red pill’ behaviour in place of more ‘endearing’ actions like constant texting and show how much you care (example in Models) and wonder why she doesn’t call back

      It’s strange to claim that “positive masculinity and long-term healthy relationships is the end-goal for red pill” when most of what they teach is misogyny and toxic masculinity. Yes, Mark Manson specifically recommends not doing those actions because they come off as “needy”. However, there is a false dichotomy in your point. It is possible to spit out the red pill AND still not come off as needy.

      – Models is a fundamentally red pill book… which talks about hypergamy (under different terms) and the act of being polarising yet you think that red pill as a whole is ‘flat out emotional abuse’

      Mark Manson specifically condemns the red pill on his website https://markmanson.net/whats-the-problem-with-feminism

      – you seem to have a problem with the forum… of course, you’re going to run into different people / ideas… it’s impossible to agree with everything. That’s like saying you have to agree with everything Tucker Max says even though most of his earlier books would be extremely ’misogynistic’ by your standards

      Yes, it’s impossible to agree with everything. However, that is not what I am saying. The problem is that the red pill specifically advocates misogyny and hatred against women, thus invalidating it as a self-improvement tool. That’s why I’ve only recommended Mate by Tucker Max and not any of his earlier books.

      – isn’t it contradictory to say that you should ‘never take advice from the red pill. Ever,’ when you said there was ‘some good gems of advice’? What if you only found about healthy eating and abundance mentality from the red pill – it’s not up for you or me to say where people should get their information (since I would never have discovered Models if it wasn’t for the red pill)

      It’s not at all contradictory. Even though there are “some good gems of advice”, the overwhelming bad in the red pill results in a net negative for the reader.

      – I would agree that dread game does have the potential for negative emotional ramifications

      That’s why you don’t do it.

      – I will also agree that last-minute resistance can also have the potential to push boundaries too far

      Such as sexual assault and rape. Let’s not hand-wave that fact away.

      – yes, using bitch is unnecessary

      It’s also misogynic and hateful against women. Let’s not hand-wave that fact away either.

      – conventional PUAs (e.g. direct female manipulation) and positive masculinity (and by extension vulnerability) follow two very different mindsets / behaviours (note: the latter denounces the former very explicitly) but you lump them together under one umbrella term. Surely, you have the capacity to separate the two since Models is by red pill standards, a red pill book.

      Actually, I believe that manipulating women is a bad thing and positive masculinity is a good thing. I do not believe they fall under one umbrella term. And again, Mark Manson condemns the red pill on his website.

      – I guess it’s just a misunderstanding in semantics, your reaction to certain words, and your black and white approach to something you think is categorically black and white

      I’m not sure what this point is referring to. You’ll have to be more specific.

      – I don’t agree with the article, but you do have balls for writing it…

      Thanks.

      – I don’t even expect you to agree with me because as good ol’ Dale said, ‘nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right’

      That’s fine. As I pointed out in the article, I didn’t write any of this to convince any current TRP’ers (or you, Ralph) to spit out the red pill. I wrote it to warn newcomers against taking it in the first place. Those are the people who I’ve written this article for and those are the people who matter. They’re free to judge the merits of my arguments for themselves and follow my advice if they think I’m right, or ignore my advice if they think I’m wrong. Judging by the positive feedback I’ve received from people who do not follow TRP, it appears I’m doing a good job.

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