Why you NEVER take advice from The Red Pill

This is the most selfish thing I’ve written so far.

A few weeks ago, I was driving my car and I realized that the driver seat seemed a little low compared to the rest of the car. Was my seat crooked? No, the seat was fine. Suddenly, I felt a pit in my stomach. I got out of the car and hoped that it wasn’t what I thought that it was.

It was. The tire went flat. Welp.

To make things worse, it was below freezing outside and I had not put on nearly enough layers to keep myself warm. Double welp.

With no other options, I rolled up my sleeves and got to work. However, it turned out that the lug nuts were frozen in place and could not be easily removed. That’s how I found myself stuck on the side of the road with a flat in subzero temperatures. Triple welp.

My reaction?

I’m a calm and gentle person by nature and it takes a lot to get me angry. So, when something does get me ticked off then you better believe it’s a big thing.

This ticks me off. Buckle up because it’s about to get real.

Recently I came across a post on Reddit where the poster asked “How much of the Red Pill is true?” and “Do women really respond to this quite well? Which type of women? All of them? I’m actually now scared to continue dating this girl now because I feel like eventually I’ll be the boring guy she is dating and she’ll cheat on me eventually with the Red Pill guy. The rock hard built guy who has lots of friends and social dominance.”

Ugh! It ticks me off that The Red Pill exists!!

What is The Red Pill?

If you don’t know what The Red Pill is then consider yourself lucky. I hope you hang on to your innocence for as long as you can.

Okay, okay. I get sarcastic and I start swearing when I’m angry but I’ll try to put that aside for the sake of writing a coherent article. No promises, though!

The Red Pill is a subreddit on the Reddit internet forums that purports to be about “Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men”. In reality, it’s ridden with misogyny and sleazy tactics that are utterly disrespectful to women.

I mean, look at that post at the bottom of the screen “7 Tips on keeping a Plate”. They don’t even recognize women as human beings. They refer to women as “plates”. FUCKING PLATES! And it’s got OVER 100 UPVOTES!!

Here’s a few examples of what they preach:

  • They teach “dread game” or making your girlfriend fear that you’re about to break up with her in order to make her do what you want her to do
  • Women are hypergamous and that they instinctually seek out the best Alpha male available, even if that means leaving the man that they are currently dating (or are married to)
  • Alphas make up 20% of the male population and have sex with 80% of women
  • If a woman is hesitant about having sex then you need to push past her “last minute resistance”
  • They believe that “All Women Are Like That” and that she’ll constantly throw “shit tests” at you to determine how much of an Alpha you really are

About that last bullet. According to The Red Pill, if she says: “I’m mad at you!” then it’s a shit test. The incorrect or Beta response (apparently) is to ask her what’s wrong or how you can make it better. Supposedly, the correct or Alpha response is to say something like “Good”, “I like you better mad”, or “That’s too bad. Frowning causes wrinkles.”

Does that sound like a bunch of nonsense to you? If so, that’s a good thing because it means you’re a decent human being. Common sense tells us that a lot of their ideas are wrong, that dread game is a scummy tactic, that women can’t be blanket generalized as hypergamous, and that shit tests are idiotic.

The truth about “Alpha” and “Beta”

According to The Red Pill, the “Alphas” form 20% of the men and they get to have sex with 80% of the women. This is commonly referred to as “Alpha Fucks/Beta Bucks” by random weirdos on the internet who have no formal education in human behavior and yet who claim to understand women better than women understand themselves. If you pass her “shit tests” then you can prove yourself an alpha but if you fail then you’re a beta.

The Red Pill claims that this is how wolves behave in nature. The Alpha wolf is the leader of his pack and has the first choice of female wolves to choose from, while the Betas get his leftovers. They use this to justify acting like a jerk in real life because that’s supposedly how Alphas behave.

That’s also wrong.

Alpha and Beta don’t even exist in nature. The terms alpha and beta were first popularized in part by Dr. David L. Mech in 1970 based on his observations of wolves—in captivity. However, in 1999 he realized that wolves don’t naturally behave that way without human intervention and has since renounced the concept of alpha and beta. That’s right, The Red Pill is based on concepts that have been disproven for almost 20 years!

Why do this, then? Why use the terms alpha and beta when they’ve been demonstrated to be false? What’s really going on is that alpha and beta are used as a recruitment strategy. It forms a sort of club, and anyone who is a part of their in-crowd is labeled an “Alpha” and anyone who isn’t is labeled a “Beta”. The people who have swallowed The Red Pill and accepted the alternative facts as objective facts become their own clique, like the way that the jocks or cheerleaders or nerds form their own groups in high school.

After all, you don’t want to be a beta do you? You don’t want to lose your woman to one of the alphas who are having sex with 80% of the women right??

Forming their own clique allows them to rationalize away any logical argument against their ideology. If someone tells them that alpha and beta don’t actually exist in nature, they can just say “Oh, don’t listen to what he’s saying. He’s just a beta.”

It provides a way for blame someone else for your problems

As Dale Carnegie writes in How to Win Friends and Influence People, the infamous gangster Al Capone never thought himself guilty but instead saw himself as an unfairly persecuted man who only wanted to help others. When we fail at something, one of the hardest things we can possibly do is to take an honest look at ourselves and try to identify what we did wrong. It’s much, much easier to find someone or something else to blame for our shortcomings.

That guy who was my classmate in school and is now getting paid more than I am? He’s just a brown-nosing suck-up. I’m having trouble getting a date? It’s because I’m short and/or Asian. My friends keep beating me in Mario Party? They’re just lucky. As the Joker said in The Lego Batman Movie, “I’m not your worst enemy. Your worst enemy is you.”

On second thought, that one about losing at Mario Party might actually be true…

This kind of sleazy advice is prevalent because it offers men who are struggling with women an alternative explanation to why they aren’t having success with women. Some men struggle with women because they’re socially awkward, or they’re not presenting themselves well, or they have a negative attitude that women find unattractive. That’s a tough pill to swallow.

An easier pill to swallow is to simply blame other people for your failures. It’s much easier for them to blame feminism, or to claim that women don’t like nice guys, or to say that women are all irrational creatures and that’s why they can’t get a girlfriend. It doesn’t matter to them whether or not that’s actually true. The Red Pill offers them the dark promise of being able to get success with women without having to take that hard look at yourself and admit that you may be doing something wrong. The cost of admission is that you become a terrible person in the process. You sell your soul to the devil.

The price you pay for following The Red Pill

Okay, let’s get right to the Million Dollar Question. Does The Red Pill work?

It “works” in that you might be able to get a woman to stay with you in the short term. But after that you’ll begin to wonder why all of your relationships feel so unfulfilling.

The Red Pill is flat out emotional abuse. If you’re seeing a woman and you start to use dread game, she might wonder why you’ve suddenly started to act all cold and distant. She’ll wonder, “Is something the matter? What’s bothering you?”

The Red Pill will tell you that this is a shit test. Don’t fall for it. Hold your frame. Keep doing what you’re doing so that she’ll recognize you as an alpha and not a beta.

Maybe she’ll try harder to make you happy. Not because she’s trying to trick you but because she’s genuinely trying to make you feel better. “What’s gotten into you?” she thinks. To you, it looks like The Red Pill is working. But every dread game you play cuts her emotionally. She can’t feel the warmth or the secure, trusting bond that comes with a healthy relationship because you’re too busy waging psychological warfare with her. She may stick around for a period of time, hoping that you see the light and stop playing games with her.

But you don’t, because The Red Pill tells you not to look like a beta. And eventually she’ll get fed up and leave. Maybe not today. Maybe in a matter of weeks, or months, or even years. But she cannot be happy in such a relationship and every game you play just pushes her that much farther out the door.

You turn to The Red Pill forum. You post about your experience. Are the other guys there going to think for a while and say to themselves “Maybe this Red Pill isn’t working after all?” Nope. Instead, they’ll encourage you to double down on your beliefs!

“All Women Are Like That. AWALT,” they’ll tell you. “She fell in love with Chad.” You weren’t alpha enough, so she left you for someone who was. And you buy even deeper into The Red Pill philosophy in order to make yourself more alpha, unwilling to face the fact that it was The Red Pill that messed you up in the first place.

“The Red Pill is just incomplete! You can just take the good and leave the bad!”

*sigh* Here’s where I really get ticked off…

This is something I’ve heard from people defending The Red Pill. The Red Pill is not bad, they say. It’s just incomplete. You can just take whatever good advice you find there and ignore the misogynist parts.

Here’s the thing, though…NO OTHER SELF-HELP LITERATURE REQUIRES YOU TO DO THIS!! If you’re reading Models by Mark Manson or Mate by Tucker Max or The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by the late Stephen Covey, you don’t have to filter out the misogynist parts to only try and find the good parts. All of it is good advice! None of it is misogyny!!

Also, how are you supposed to filter out the bad stuff in the first place if you’re inexperienced and you don’t know anything about dating? You need to already be knowledgeable about dating in order cherry-pick the good gems of advice out of the bad stuff. But that’s why you were looking for advice in the first place…because you weren’t knowledgeable about dating yet and you wanted to be! How are you supposed to pick out the good advice from the bad if you don’t already know what the good advice is!?!

Finally, the people you surround yourself with influence your perception of reality. Even when you don’t think it does. In a 2005 experiment conducted by Gregory Berns of Emory University, volunteers played a game where they were shown two different objects on a computer screen and asked to decide whether the first object could be rotated to match the second. When played alone, the volunteers were incorrect only 13.8 percent of the time. But, when played with a group of other people—who were actually actors instructed to unanimously give the wrong answers—the volunteers were incorrect 41 percent of the time.

Here’s the kicker. Were the volunteers consciously giving the wrong answer to fit in with the group? Or, did the group’s opinion actually change the way they saw the shapes? We know the answer, because the volunteers had MRI scans as they were doing the activity. The volunteers weren’t consciously trying to fit in with the group.

The volunteers gave the wrong answers because the group’s opinion changed their perception of reality!

The people you surround yourself with influence the way you see the world. Many of us think we’re immune to marketing, even as we are unconsciously influenced by it. If you swallow The Red Pill thinking you’re smart enough to just ignore the misogyny, guess again. That’s when it really gets you.

“But I used The Red Pill and it helped me!”

That might be true. If you have used The Red Pill and accomplished some sort of self-improvement, congratulations. I mean that. There’s no need for me to belittle your accomplishment in any way.

I will admit The Red Pill does have some good gems of advice. Abundance mentality. Not putting women on a pedestal. Working out and being healthy. All good pieces of advice to follow.

Here’s the thing about taking advice from The Red Pill, though. All of those good gems of advice are buried under mountains and mountains of misogyny. And if you’ve successfully applied advice from The Red Pill to better your dating life, then you could have gone to any other place that offers dating advice and gotten those same gems, but without all of the woman-hating.

Seriously, go read something like Models by Mark Manson or How to Win Friends and Influence People by the late Dale Carnegie.

“There will always be people being extreme or callous but why the charge against the actual philosophy? It’s like hating the whole of Islam because of the actions of a small sub-group.”

Finally, I’m sure some people will think I’m being too harsh with The Red Pill as a whole. That it’s not worth dismissing the entire philosophy just because some of its follows have decided to be all misogynistic and women-hating.

And to that I have to say…

It refers to women as “bitches” on the FUCKING SIDEBAR!!!

*sigh*

Alright, alright. Calm down Steve.

Is it too optimistic for me to believe that the 2,400 words I’ve written above are going to convince anyone to spit out The Red Pill? Probably. Red Pillers have an amazing capacity to ignore logic, even though they claim that women are the illogical ones.

No, I don’t honest believe that any of this is going to convert any Red Pill followers away from the cult.

When I was little, I used to be afraid of many things that my adult self would think was silly today. I used to be afraid of the dark. Of monsters hiding in my closet. Of that freaking piano guarding the red coin in Big Boo’s Haunt and that giant eel in Jolly Roger Bay.

Seriously Nintendo, this thing is freaking terrifying when you’re young!

Today, the things that scare me are different. What scares me is the idea that a well-meaning gentleman might stumble upon The Red Pill. Perhaps he doesn’t have a lot of dating experience. Or maybe he’s been burned a few times in the past by women who didn’t respect him. So he goes looking for dating advice. And he comes across The Red Pill.

It makes him feel uncomfortable at first. “Is this really true?” he wonders. He doesn’t feel too good about the advice, but he doesn’t have that frame of reference to dispute the things he’s reading. He doesn’t have enough experience to argue against what they’re saying. So he tries to implement what he comes across. And it seems to work, at first. He gets more dates. More women going out with him. He feels a little better about himself. But his relationships are rocky and filled with drama. Has he started to become a jerk? An asshole? Should he start to reconsider his beliefs?

“All Women Are Like That. AWALT,” The Red Pill tells him. They reassure him that it’s not his fault. That the reason for all his dating hardships is because women are little emotional creatures who are unable to use logic. They’re not even human beings. They’re “plates”. And at that crucial moment when he begins to reconsider the way he interacts with women, The Red Pill persuades him otherwise and instead encourages him to double down on his beliefs. To “alpha” even harder and stop being such a “beta”. Then she’ll get the tingles for him and do anything that he wants. And all of his problems will be solved. So he sinks even further into the cult and loses any shred of self-awareness, blaming women for his problems while simultaneously being the cause of them.

To me, The Red Pill is complete and utter nonsense. And I hope that it’s nonsense to you as well. I didn’t write this article to convince any Red Pillers to leave their cult. I’m not that optimistic. Like I said before, I’ve written this post for selfish reasons.

I wrote this on the off-chance that the well-meaning gentleman sees this post first. I want him to know that there’s an alternative to all that sleazy advice out there. Before he accidentally stumbles upon The Red Pill. Because that idea scares me. It keeps me up at night and makes it hard to fall asleep, knowing that this sort of misogynistic darkness exists. So maybe…just maybe…he’ll see this post first before he wanders off into The Red Pill.

If you’re reading this, I want you to know that you NEVER take advice from The Red Pill. Ever.

Maybe now I can fall asleep tonight.

Update 1/9/19: Uh-oh! Looks like The Red Pill has found me. What’s up, TRP? Anyone is welcome to leave comments on this article, even if it’s just to throw insults at me for writing this.

Dear reader, you’ll have to decide for yourself whether or not my advice is worth following. There are a lot of hateful comments from TRP followers below, and it’s not my place to tell you whether or not I’m correct. Unlike The Red Pill, I don’t claim to be “right” or to be “the truth”. I’m simply offering you my perspective as a happily married man.

Update 3/19/19: Alright, I propose a drinking game! Take a shot every time someone in the comments 1) hurls an insult at me, 2) claims that the red pill is “the truth”, or 3) posts a nonsensical 3+ paragraph essay that lacks any sources or research. If you make it to the end and you are still conscious, I’ll buy you a cup of coffee to help you sober up again. Maybe. But probably not.

Update 7/1/19: It takes a while for comments to appear on the site. Please don’t submit your comments multiple times, or I will judge you.

182 thoughts on “Why you NEVER take advice from The Red Pill

  1. Thank you for writing this. A few nights ago I found myself inmersed in this dante-like cult and the other side of the coin too, The Black Pill. It really scares the shit out of me too thinking that in these obscure places dwell this kind of people and everyday more kids will be reading this…I don’t even know if I should talk with friends about this, fearing that there’s no such thing as bad publicity. Cheers my friend, hard to not being sad about certain stuff….

    1. Dear Steven,

      Thank you for taking the time to articulate your thoughts on TRP. I admire your stamina in keeping up with the comment section as well.

      I am in a two year long relationship, and last night I stumbled down the rabbit hole of TRP and also MGTOW. I had a sinking suspicion that some of the points being made were incorrect and used circular reasoning, but I also feared that they could be correct. This is what prompted me to find your article, which was a breath of fresh air. While I do see the point that TRP has about Men’s Rights in general and how certain laws effect men adversely in a court of law, I find that the way it talks about and vouches for treating women is pretty terrible. I am going to look into those sources you suggested.

      Thanks again.

    2. As I guy, while I do agree with some red pill assertions, I’m turned off by the negative, extreme parts of it. I believe the liberal left has put out biased, extremism-based propaganda on the other side too, though and don’t go along with a lot of what they have to say too.

      There’s some truth to the assertions that there have been brainwashing and agenda pushing in both sides of the spectrum.

      Neither is good.

  2. This was a good read right up until the very end where it was all torn apart by you having that AD.
    “Sign up and you’ll get my free “How to Talk to Women” conversational cheat sheet that will show you exact words you can use to approach her, to keep the conversation going, and then to get her number or ask her out.”
    This makes you no better than the horrible red-pillers your whole article was about.

    1. As sleazy as that ad at the end is, and despite the fact that I haven’t even read the newsletter in question…

      I really, really doubt that it contains anything even remotely as misanthropic as The Red Pill. That stuff is legitimately dangerous, while I’m going to guess that the contents of the newsletter are just trite and potentially selling the email address to spammers. I’d pick trite and spammy over teaching people how to perform emotional abuse any day.

    2. Let me get this straight.

      I’ve created something that’s 1) helpful, 2) free, and 3) completely optional to sign up for…and this makes me as bad as the Red Pill followers that I denounce? Why is that?

      Keep in mind that this article is over 3,000 words long. I expect the same level of detail in your response.

    3. Re: Michael Olsen: So in your moral hierarchy a guy selling advice, admittedly making promises that are unlikely to be kept because there is no one way to interact with all women that guarantees success, is equivalent to the radical red-piller who states women are equivalent to dogs, incapable of love, loyalty, a sense of duty, and all virtue?

      It’s hype, nothing more.

      The fact that you would draw such a conclusion–a moral equivalency that doesn’t pass the laugh test–stamps you as a MGTOW who has bought into their
      despicably misogyny.

  3. “Seriously, go read something like Models by Mark Manson or How to Win Friends and Influence People by the late Dale Carnegie.” I did.
    Models didn’t do anything for me.
    How to win friends was very helpful… In winning friends and being friend-zoned.
    What else?

    1. She’s definitely cheating on him with that kind of mindset….can all the alpha’s get together and get this AFC a copy of The Rational Male??

      1. If there’s one thing I enjoy, it’s commentary on my love life from internet folks who weren’t there. I find it interesting that you’ve decided to call yourself “Cuckkiller”. Personally, I use my real name online because I’m not insecure enough where I need to look tough in front of random internet strangers. But hey…that’s just me.

        Also, please do not gift The Rational Male to me. Fakespot has determined most of the reviews of The Rational Male to be dishonest.

  4. I gotta feeling you attack TRP as you see it as competition to against your white knight dating agenda.

    Also you contradict yourself in this article.

    The only B word I call women is beautiful, bitches love to be called beautiful.

    1. Wow, you’re really full of yourself aren’t you? Seriously – wow. You are disrespectful human being and obviously breastfed until you were 20. Honestly I feel really bad for you, I bet you’ve let many great opportunities pass you by……
      I hope this article somehow imbedds itself into your self conscious and you will come out of this an even better man.
      And what men need to know – even if there were such things as alphas and betsy- that by using the red pill you are actually a fake alpha which in turn makes you the actual BETA! Ouch, that probably stings a little?
      You guys ummmmm – ass hats – are going to end up turning it around so that the existing betas are, with time and growth of your ideology, going to turn them into the ALPHAS.
      Another punch in the gut! Sorry…..
      But then again you will most likely see this, show it to your cat or two friends and make a joke but that’s okay, I am not in need of your approval. Hoping this angers you enough too hold into it……snowflake.

  5. Yeah yeah, your article is fucking bullshit. Let me explain.

    I was a kissless virgin until I was 18. I “got lucky” and got to second base with 3-4 chicks over the course of a YEAR afterwards, because I hit the gym real hard.

    I got my heart crushed pretty hard by a girl that of course saw me as a friend. Because I was nice. Looking back at it now from a red pill perspective, I could have easily fucked her, if I knew then what I know now. Anyway, that caused me to go find the redpill. I read. I read. I read even more. I read it all. And I started applying it. Know what fucking happened? I got a lot better with chicks. Literally all I ever wanted. I lost my virginity. I was insanely happy.

    Know what didn’t happen? I didn’t cry myself to sleep because the chick I liked was making out with another guy in front of me. Which was me before the red pill.

    Now you did state that it “works” in the way you’ll get chicks for some time, but eventually (maybe even after years) they’ll leave you. Assuming that’s true because “dread game” is bad, and not because you became too much of a doormat, here’s the continuation of my story:

    I came across a girl I clicked with. Well. REAL well. As in, we say the same thing approximately 50 times a day (not even exaggerating). We’re basically the same person but of the opposite sex. It legitimately scares us (and again this is not an exaggeration). It scares the people that know us. I’ve been a little less red pill on her the more we get into our relationship, but I maintain that I am in charge, I maintain dread game if she acts out, I keep frame. I love this girl despite that. And she loves me.

    Know how I got her? I took all of red pill’s advice, that’s how. The pre redpill me would never have gotten her, would be seen as a friend (which is how she sees one guy she knows is in love with her, that guy is WAY nicer than me, so how then if you’re right, is she with me and not with him? ).

    Use the red pill. Use it a lot. Fuck fuck fuck. Fuck to be happy as a man. Fuck until you meet the person like I did. Then choose for yourself what to do with her because you’re experienced enough at that point.

    TRP would call this “oneitis” and remind me that “AWALT”. I keep that in mind. I am ready to lose her at any time. And it’s because of that that the relationship is working. The relationship I never would have had without TRP.

    So don’t claim that it doesn’t work. It made me the happiest I’ve ever been.

    1. I’ve already addressed this in the article but perhaps it bears repeating. Dread game is emotional abuse and you deprive both you and her of the secure, trusting bond that comes with a healthy relationship. It speaks volumes that you’ve already created contingency plans on what to do when you lose her.

      Nobody in a secure relationship does that.

      1. Women are not attracted to men who are not better than them and don’t have other options. Period.

        Their natural instinct is to hitch their wagon to the winningest man possible.

        And they are right to do so.

        Your interpretation has several problems, namely having to do with misunderstanding the purpose of that which offends you.

        The purpose of the casual “bitches,” is to act as a way to continually remind men that women are just women. A fully actualized man (in the shorthand for the new, “Alpha,” though the best men are neither Alpha nor Beta and really transcend the whole concept) does not orient his life around women. His life is about his mission, and a great deal of time in a young man’s life should be oriented toward finding out what that is. All else is a waste of God’s gift to men, which is directed, forceful energy. Force of will.

        The purpose of AWALT is not to embitter men, but to help men to understand the reality that women are people, not princesses, and the nature of women is different than men, and not what most people are openly told. AWALT teaches men to start understanding that to be bitter about the nature of women is to be bitter about the nature of the sun or the moon or the trees. It’s utterly stupid. Women are women, and a person who successfully transforms their life with the self-improvement offered by TRP — which, among other things, proffers The Art of War, Marcus Aurelius, etc. — will outgrow his childish anger.

        What you’re doing is judging ideas by the behavior of their adherents. Not altogether an unreasonable thing to do, but the angry people don’t really ‘get it’ yet. Judge a movement by its leaders first.

        1. Okay, that is the hardest I’ve ever seen someone try to rationalize the term “bitches” as non-misogynistic. I’ve actually read the “How to Manage Your Bitches” post and it says nothing about not orienting your life around women or your life’s mission or transcending alpha and beta or God’s gift to men or force of will. Did you even read that post or are you just imagining that it says what you think it does?

          The post in question is about training women like dogs. That’s why women are referred to as “bitches”. Because the red pill literally encourages you to treat women like dogs. The red pill does not help men understand that “women are people” as you’ve stated, but that women can be treated as animals. As less-than-human. Similarly, AWALT teaches men that all women are to be treated this way without exception. Seriously, do you think that “AWALT” stands for something other than “all women are like that”? If you can’t understand that this is what AWALT literally means then I recommend you consult a dictionary as soon as possible and look up the words “all”, “women”, “are”, “like”, and “that”.

          Also, if an idea causes its adherents to engage in abhorrent behavior then it probably wasn’t a good idea to begin with. But sure, I’ll entertain what you’re saying in your last paragraph. I’ll play your game. Let’s ignore the absolutely deplorable behavior of the red pill rank and file followers just for a minute and judge it by its leaders. What behavior are the leaders engaging in?

          Here are EXACT QUOTES from THE TOP MOD of the red pill:

          “Women are children.” “She is a child.” “It’s an obvious sign that this person has not matured beyond the simplicity of a child.”

          Even judging solely by the ideas of the red pill leaders, it’s a misogynistic movement. I rest my case.

          1. Well it seemed to work for him.

            I would agree that TRP could probably do without a lot of the coarse derogatory language, because the core ideas of it are simple: stop whining, take care of yourself, don’t grovel to or make excuses for yourself to the women in your life, and just be a fucking man. Women like men – men who have the confidence and drive to take charge of their lives – even if they pretend otherwise.

            Sorry about your article.

          2. The problems of TRP is more than just “coarse derogatory language”. TRP is about misogyny and hatred toward women. I’ve quoted the top mod of TRP saying that women are children.

      2. You use dread game (emotional abuse) to combat emotional abuse. It’s the same thing as abundance mentality. It’s not being needy, when you need someone, they can abuse you. Pretty simple

      3. There is no such thing as a “secure relationship”. All relationships end, in death if not by divorce. People change.

        And one thing that kills relationships is complacency. Taking it for granted. Dread game (which I hate but understand the need for) keeps your partner from getting complacent. Because complacent women are bored women, and bored women wander.

        That’s not emotional abuse, any more than telling somebody that if they break into your house you’ll shoot them. It’s just an explanation of consequences. The dread they feel is something they choose to feel. If they don’t want it, they can leave. Instead, they stay and take corrective measures to alleviate the dread.

        1. Dread game is emotional abuse because you’re keeping her in a constant “flight-or-fight” roller coaster, which is physically and psychologically harmful. You’re treating her as an adversary instead of a partner. A better way to handle relationships is to learn to respect her and effectively communicate your needs and wants (while also listening to hers) as a mature adult.

          After all, if you’re constantly finding yourself in relationships where women are getting bored and wandering away from you, then you probably weren’t a great catch to begin with.

      4. Re: Michael Olsen: So in your moral hierarchy a guy selling advice, admittedly making promises that are unlikely to be kept because there is no one way to interact with all women that guarantees success, is equivalent to the radical red-piller who states women are equivalent to dogs, incapable of love, loyalty, a sense of duty, and all virtue?

        It’s hype, nothing more.

        The fact that you would draw such a conclusion–a moral equivalency that doesn’t pass the laugh test–stamps you as a MGTOW who has bought into their
        despicably misogyny.

    2. Re: Michael Olsen: So in your moral hierarchy a guy selling advice, admittedly making promises that are unlikely to be kept because there is no one way to interact with all women that guarantees success, is equivalent to the radical red-piller who states women are equivalent to dogs, incapable of love, loyalty, a sense of duty, and all virtue?

      It’s hype, nothing more.

      The fact that you would draw such a conclusion–a moral equivalency that doesn’t pass the laugh test–stamps you as a MGTOW who has bought into their
      despicably misogyny.

  6. There has been a Feminist war on men that goes back to the 1970’s and turned ugly in the 1980’s. It has recently been escalated by the #meetoo movement. Do I think that sexual harassment doesn’t exist? I not saying it doesn’t, but how many men have had their lives seriously messed up by false claims? Also how many men are unknowingly raising other men’s babies and those who find out too late when they go for the divorce find out that the courts and the law are stacked against them. They are “Divorce Raped” and are forced to pay child support for a child that is not even his. How many women have taken men’s seed from a condom and impregnated themselves against the will of their partner? Then the man is either trapped into marrying, or forced to pay child support for 18 years. If women are truly equal then why are men still paying alimony . Take Johnny Depp , he had to pay Amber Heard 7 million dollars for 15 months of marriage, that is $466,666.66 a month. It is not that Amber is destitute. In 2015 She earned at least $259,876, She was paid $2 million for her role in the 2017 movie Justice League. TRP is the reaction to all of those things. TRP is not only a philosophy about women it is a philosophy about life. There is a lot of TRP that correlates with other self help philosophies in business and life. TRP is also the backlash to the constant men bashing that takes place daily in the media.

      1. Nothing that Reggie says justifies misogyny, that is true. However, so far as I have seen, “the red pill” is the only place that I have seen that takes seriously the idea that men are “ends in themselves”, to use some Kantian language, even when those men are romantically involved with women. That is, there does seem to me to be a pervasive cultural norm in the US that men exist only as means to others ends, whether that be as fathers, boyfriends, husbands, children, friends, workers, etc. The same is true of women, but in feminism there is an institutional and ideological movement to actually think about what a society that treats women as worthy ends in themselves would look like. The red pill is the only place where I have seen a similar concern for men. It is by no means perfect, but it is also the only part of the culture that I consistently see telling ordinary men that they are worthwhile and should expect to be treated with respect. That the only place where that view can flourish is in a reactionary environment rife with misogy is a damning indictment of our society’s basic level of humanity.

        1. I do agree that there is a lack of places in today’s society where men are encouraged to be vulnerable. However, the red pill is not a good place to find this. There is little good advice in the red pill that is not already common sense (“be confident” and “lift to be healthy”…duh?). The supposed camaraderie in the red pill is built not on building each other up, but on tearing someone else (women) down.

          A better place to find this is among those books I suggested, such as Models, Mate, How to be an Adult in Relationships, and Rising Strong. BTW, this is how I know that you didn’t actually read those books before you decided to critique them.

  7. TRP isn’t about misogyny. It’s about the truth. You want to operate on a set of false premises that’s your prerogative. At least the TRP guys make an attempt to get at the truth.

    You obviously don’t have the requisite experience to advise men on relationships.

  8. “Models didn’t do anything for me.
    How to win friends was very helpful… In winning friends and being friend-zoned.
    What else?”

    You can hand somebody a set of tools and all the supplies they need but that doesn’t mean they know how to build a house with it…

  9. Steven Zawila (the author of this article) has basically negative sex appeal. This is grade A “blind leading the blind” material. Just look at his profile pic (he even has on a little undershirt lmao.) I’m guessing this ‘dating guru’ has been intimate with under 10 women in his entire life. I wasn’t even going to comment on this until I read his profile where he explains he’s a dating coach (DOUBLE LOL)

    I think what this guy is missing is that he believes that men and women are actually equal in the sexual marketplace. He doesn’t seem to understand that the average woman has sexual relationships flung at her at prolly a 100x greater rate than the average man. This is why ‘dread game’ is an important part of a healthy long lasting relationship with a high value woman… she has to know her man is as valuable as she is, and there’s no better proof of that than showing a willingness to leave the relationship if it isn’t beneficial to him. Women do this all the time, so why shouldn’t men?

    As a side note, the author of this article also seems to misunderstand what dread game actually is (big surprise!). Not letting women get emotionally abusive or high and mighty about her participation in the relationship by showing a willingness to leave is not abuse or misogyny; it’s called setting healthy boundaries. And to pretend that women don’t test their men (even subconsciously) is a little sophomoric and speaks volumes about this ‘dating guru’. It shows also in one of his replies to a previous comment where he says it’s insecure and ’emotional abuse’ to have ‘contingency plans’ aka been a high value person that can actually go out and get some. It’s just so childish to preach this kind of advice. It’s like saying a good looking woman who goes to the gym is emotionally abusing her guy and that she should get fat and ugly so she lacks ‘contingencies’.

    Steven Zawila even admits he doesn’t have any experience, so why is he writing a 3000 word article about that in which he has no experience??? Lol, he might as well say “I’m not a doctor, but I play one on TV. You have cancer!”

    1. Sid, please educate yourself on the “ad hominem” logical fallacy before commenting again. About half of your comment commits this fallacy. (Also, LOL at “negative sex appeal”. Looks like the women I’ve dated just never got the memo.)

      I’ve already addressed this in my article and other comments. Dread game is emotional abuse. It deprives both you and her of the secure, trusting bond that comes with a stable relationship. In a stable relationship, both partners are dedicated to making it work. That’s why a relationship where you are constantly reminding her that you’re willing to leave is, by definition, unstable. For the same reasons, a relationship where one party is making secret one-sided contingency plans is also by definition, unstable.

      Sid, you call me childish but is there anything less manly than running and hiding from an issue with your partner? Giving them the cold shoulder and ignoring everything in hopes that they come around? Ignoring her and hoping that she’s needy enough to want to ignore what’s making her feel unloved?? That’s what dread game is.

      There are better ways to show your worth in a relationship. Being open and authentic. Showing a willingness to be vulnerable. Paying attention to the things that she cares about. Making her feel loved in the ways that matter to her.

      The fact that “the average woman has sexual relationships flung at her at prolly [sic] a 100x greater rate than the average man” does not change this. If she’s willing to leave a committed relationship with you for some random stranger on the street who flirts with her, then you probably weren’t worth much to her in the first place.

      Finally, you’ve performed an incredible amount of mental gymnastics to arrive at the conclusion that I have no dating experience. In my response to Bill W. when I said “I don’t claim to have any level of experience”, I meant I do not proclaim any specific amount of experience. For you to believe otherwise, you would have had to ignore the very next sentence where I said “The results I’ve helped my clients achieve speak for themselves”. You would have also had to have ignored every other post written on this blog where I include personal stories of my experiences. Congratulations on arriving at a logically incorrect conclusion despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

      Mr Sid V, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  10. White knights will always be white knights .

    Low status beta male

    Stay in your lane

    Calling yourself a “dating guru”

    We got 17 year old life coaches nowadays smh

    1. Wow. I’ve never seen that before. My heart goes out to that guy. He didn’t deserve anything that happened to him.

      HOWEVER, this does not validate The Red Pill in any way. TRP is centered around hatred of women, and a wife backstabbing her husband does not justify misogyny any more than a husband backstabbing his wife justifies misandry.

    1. What about not practicing misogyny at all?

      I checked out the article you linked and practically all of it is dubious. It’s facts and figures comes from sources of questionable validity such as “the-spearhead.com” which does not exist, as well as other WordPress and Blogspot websites. Many of its figures lack any citation, and I can only assume they were made up on the spot. In contrast, my facts and figures come from reputable sources such as the 2005 experiment by Gregory Berns of Emory University. I’ve even cited David L. Mech–the founder of the terms “alpha” and “beta”–disproving those very same terms.

  11. Hey Steven. Just…thank you for this. I stumbled in here from reddit and now I can leave with a little more faith in humanity then I started out with. It’s really nice seeing men supporting other men in a healthy non-toxic way. The world needs more of you.

  12. Thanks a lot man. This article really hit home.I found the red pill after a really bad break up and I felt like I have discovered some secret.I really had started seeing women as objects.Instead of being genuine, I always had the red pill in mind while talking to women. I actually remember being happy I found the red pill.

    People from the red pill community will call this blog as bullshit.How do I know which ideology is right?(Both are really convincing!) I really am confused.

    How do I get all that out of my head? Could you recommend any good books other than those you mentioned?

    1. Hi, confused! TBH, when I first stumbled across the red pill I was afraid that all of it was true. What if we really have been lied to all our lives? What if women really do prefer men who treat them as objects? What if the red pillers got it right and everybody else is getting it wrong?

      The red pill has an insidious way of preying upon your insecurities. Even if you know intellectually that what they’re saying does not logically make sense, it has a way of getting under your skin. It’s like if someone came up to you and said “You know everyone just tolerates you, right?” They’re probably just full of hot air…but now you’re thinking about it the next time you interact with your friends and family.

      Looking back, what helped me out was taking a look at the relationships of people around me. My parents are happily married and my dad never had to use ‘dread game’ on my mom. Some of my friends are also married and they never resort to using the red pill. Instead, they hold each other in mutual respect even when the going gets tough.

      Some other readings I would recommend:

      How to Be an Adult in Relationships by David Richo and Kathlyn Hendricks
      Rising Strong by Brene Brown (great book on getting back up when life knocks you down)
      https://markmanson.net/relationship-advice (if you read just one article on relationships, read this one!!)

      1. FWIW, those are about how to have successful relationships, not about how to increase your sexual attractiveness to women (or your woman), which I think is a huge blind spot in much of relationship advice because sex is important in a relationship, and hence sexual desire is important as well, and a lack of sexual desire can kill a relationship. To pretend otherwise is to be naive. But who else has been willing to say that men should actually make an effort to be sexually appealing to women, and to also recognize that being a kind and respectful person good at setting boundaries is just a different thing from being a sexy person, and that is true when it comes to both male and female sexual desire?

        1. How to be an Adult in Relationships covers sexuality, as does Mate and Models which I suggested earlier. But I guess it’s too much to expect you to read the books I recommend BEFORE critiquing them, isn’t it?

  13. Mr. Confused,

    Why are you trying to forget what you learned at TRP? There is no problem seeing women as objects in the right situations, like dating etc. I’m women and, being heterosexual, see men as objects when talking about getting laid. Respect all the women you deal with in the daily bases but , please, don’t feel bad for lusting after some of this people. This is conservative bullshit trying to pass as a good thing. You are not a bad person because you want sex and relationships.

    1. Seeing women as objects is harmful because it is dehumanizing. It legitimizes treating women in ways that no human should ever be treated. “Psychological abuse” simply becomes “dread game”, while “rape” or “sexual assualt” becomes “pushing past her last minute resistance”.

        1. Well, I checked them out but I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be seeing. I especially don’t see anything that justifies the misogyny found in The Red Pill. Can you tell me what I’m supposed to take away from these two links?

          1. No man ended up lonely, loveless or sexless for being mean or a bad person. Awful personality never decreases a man’s sexual success: it actually boosts it.

          2. OK, I see what you are trying to say now but I can’t agree with it. In the entire history of mankind, no man ended up lonely for being an asshole? Not one?? Ever??? That is an absurd premise.

            I want to point out the double standard in the second link you posted. The second link in your comment shows an example of a woman backstabbing her husband. Sadly, there are instances of women doing this. However, there are also instances of men who backstab their girlfriends or wives. If an instance of a woman backstabbing a man justifies misogyny (which I see that you believe) then an instance of a man backstabbing a woman also justifies misandry (which I see that you do NOT believe). Otherwise you’re just holding a double standard.

            And now the first link. It starts off trying to say something about “women on men’s personalities/manners/racism/height/etc…” by linking to Imgur screenshots and NOT actual studies. It then says that looks are just as important to women as to men.

            Well, why shouldn’t they be? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If I showed you 20 pictures of random women and told you nothing about their personalities, could you honestly tell me that all 20 were equally physically attractive to you? For you to have your own physical standards of women while criticizing women for having their own physical standards of men is hypocrisy.

            Next, it claims that “assholes and jerks get the most sex and most sexual partners”. To do this, it cites studies that looked at the behaviors of teens and undergrads. There’s the flaw–1) teens are notorious for making bad decisions, 2) students who aren’t bullies tend to be more focused on their studies rather than gaining a high number of sexual partners, and 3) students are not representative of the population as a whole.

            Finally, it asserts twice more that physical appearances are important. I’ve already addressed that above.

            “A person”, you’re welcome to comment but I urge you to stay away from these types of toxic websites. The more you go looking for information to reinforce a misogynic worldview, the more you’ll find it—even if it’s completely illogical. For a more wholesome view on relationships, go check out https://markmanson.net/relationship-advice. It includes advice from almost 1,500 people about what makes relationships work, and none of them involve being a jerk towards the people you love.

      1. Seeing people’s needs and fears and adjusting your behavior accordingly is anything but objectification. People don’t need a Red Pill subreddit to learn how to own objects. The fact that Red Pill understands women’s basic needs better than betas and women themselves is what scares you and drives you into a frenzy of denial and defensiveness. It’s pure psychology.

  14. Thank you. For proving to me that there are still sane ADULTS who exist in this already miserable planet.
    Pain and power dynamic had never been an existing factor in romance. It was the greed and hatred and delusions of both parties, along with bad fate and luck, that had drive those events in to fruition. Some people just don’t seem to understand the true definition to be loved and to love, because they can’t even fulfill the hole in their heart and the underlying feeling that they must be ‘powerful and significant’.
    This stupidity needs to stop. This is why feminazis exist and why men gets the hate. It’s an ouroboros of hate between both genders who want power and dominion over the other instead of peace, love and harmony, as human beings SHOULD BE STRIVING FOR.

    1. Hi pyromancedrake, I appreciate the compliment but I can’t agree with your comment. There isn’t an “ouroboros of hate between both genders who want power and dominion over the other”. Many women want to find a great man who complements their lives. It’s overwhelmingly men perpetuating hatred against women, not the other way around. As HuffPo puts it, “It’s not strangers, friends or acquaintances who pose the biggest threat to women’s lives. It’s the men they date and marry.” That’s why this website exists. It’s my way of telling the world that hatred toward women is NOT okay.

  15. B-b-but dread game is emotional abuse and yer a misogynist. Wahh red pill is evil!!!

    Lol like women arent out there stringing guys along for attention and free shit, like girlfriends arent out there fucking around on their SOs, like wives arent out there dragging their husbands through divorce court and raping them of their resources. Women use every trick in the book to manipulate men. They play victim, lie, use sex and various other underhanded tactics to get what they want. Even their very appearance is a lie. Make up, push up bras, high heels, fake tan, fake hair, fake nails, fake tits, fake ass…. all to get your dumb ass to believe that theyre more attractive than they really are so youre more willing to give into their vapid and childish demands. The red pill is nothing more than a tool for men to level the playing field and the only reason youre against it is because youre some moralizing finger wagging white knight whose desperately clutching on to outdated and inneffective tactics that no ones buying anymore.

    1. Hello, Dolan. Let’s break down your comment and show the error in your reasoning, shall we?

      You’ve first started off by doing a rather caricaturistic portrayal of me. This is an ad hominem logical fallacy. Since you’ve begun your argument with a logical fallacy, everything else you’ve said already stands on weak legs. But we’ll continue nonetheless.

      Next, you’ve made the claim that women backstab men and that the red pill “is nothing more than a tool for men to level the playing field”. Sadly, there do exist instances of women doing this. However, there are also instances of men who backstab their girlfriends or wives. Here is where your argument falls apart. If an instance of a woman backstabbing a man justifies misogyny (which I see that you do believe) then an instance of a man backstabbing a woman should also justify misandry–otherwise you’re holding a double standard. Since you refer to the red pill as merely “a tool for men” BUT you refer to women as being “fake” and having “vapid and childish demands”, it’s clear that you believe in the former but NOT the latter. Thus, your argument collapses under the weight of its own hypocrisy.

      Finally, you conclude your argument the same way you began it—with another ad hominem logical fallacy. That is, by referring to me as a “moralizing finger wagging white knight”. Perhaps this is the ultimate concession on your part. Since you don’t actually have any logical counterpoints against my arguments, you might as well attack the person making those arguments, right?

      1. Your whole article is a strawman of redpill principles because you do not understand them at all, i had to hold in a few chuckles at very infantile understandings of complex principles – basically just immerse yourself in the terminology and processes before you shoot off at the mouth. You started at a false premise, a lot of RP stuff is about fixing the Man, not the woman. They’re the byproduct of being a successful man. It levels the playing field of manipulation in our rather gynocentric culture. This article is just white knight assertions arguing against things you dont understand. If you did actually understand the idealogies of trp/mrp with any real grasp its probably causing you cognitive dissonance and collapsing your worldview (see anger stage of trp process) Dolan’s caricature was spot on. Were you raised by a single mother at all? I find the biggest white knights are the products of such familial arrangements.

        1. Hello, Intrepid. I find your comment self-contradictory and logically inconsistent. Since TRP is also self-contradictory and logically inconsistent, I’m not at all surprised. Let me break it down for you.

          You’ve asserted that I do NOT understand TRP, saying that I have “very infantile understandings of complex principles”. You’ve simultaneously asserted that I DO understand TRP, saying that it is “causing you cognitive dissonance and collapsing your worldview”. See where your argument falls apart? They can’t possibly both be true at the same time.

          So pray tell, Intrepid, which is it?

          1. He said “If” dummy 🙂 the two statements are an exploration of your potential reasons for ignorance given the responses here and the realities of men. TRP is a reaction to a real and measurable reality, and it is an act of self preservation, weathering this storm is all men are trying to accomplish with TRP, the pendulum will swing and reverse as it always does gents. This is the way of the world, hold tight and keep your eyes open.

    2. Your comment that women wear makeup (or high heels) to give the impression they’ve just had sex doesn’t pass the laugh test. I fly for a major U.S. airline and during the course of my 20 years and interacting with thousands of women, i’ve never known a woman to do that.

      Research in the Journal “Evolution and Human Behavior” (Morris et. al) concluded “wearing high heels makes women look more attractive by making them more feminine, as the effect of heels was to exaggerate some sex-specific elements of female gait including: greater pelvic rotation, increased vertical motion at the hip, shorter strides and higher number of steps per minute.”

      Do women choose high heels to seduce? Absolutely. But, I’ve never known one that chose high heels AFTER sex unless she was wearing them before sex.

      As to your similar fiction about makeup, But unlike today’s modern women, they weren’t trying to impress that cute guy at work or the guy at that important job interview. And the Egyptian women weren’t trying to catch the eye of the burly construction foreman working on the pyramids or the local pharoah either. Their sights were aimed a little higher. They were trying to impress the gods.

      Archeological evidence shows the Egyptian ladies were dolling themselves up as early as 4000B.C. and they weren’t trying to catch the eye of the construction foreman working on the pyramids or the local pharoah, either. Their sights were aimed a little higher. They were trying to impress the gods. (This does support the MGTOWS theory that women are hunting high-value males and who had more “value” that Osiris, Isis, or Horus?) The thought was that in order to turn the head of the gods they believed their appearance was directly related to their spiritual worth. So the Egyptians created the first cosmetics.

      So, no, Ripped one. It’s the same thing today as it was 4,000 years ago in Egypt. Women wear makeup primarily to look more appealing which means concealing blemishes, highlighting eye color, lashes, and eyebrow–and, yes, putting a little color on their lips and cheeks.

      As to these adornments, the first reported use of lipstick goes way back to 3500 B.C. when the queen of ancient Sumeria used white lead and crushed red rocks to color her lips. Men and women of Egypt used lipstick as a status symbol. Women in ancient Greece often wore red lipstick. Some people in past times believed lipstick had magical properties and could also prevent illness or death.

      As the centuries went on, the use of lipstick became more common as women strove to look their best. Lipstick became a symbol of female emancipation in the early 1900s, bolstered by the endorsement of the suffragettes.

      But what about in the 21st century? A prevailing theory is that full lips are subconsciously connected to fertility and beauty. So, the woman who is wearing a red dress and red lipstick may unconsciously be sending the symbol she’s ripe–pardon the pun–for sex. A woman gets one shot a month to become pregnant. It makes no sense whatsoever that she would attempt to look provocative after sex.

      Again, I have never seen women do a makeover sex.

      I should be surprised at your utter ignorance about such an obvious cause and effect relationship, but the more I learn about Red Pill men the more I am convinced they no frightfully little about women. No man real does. But if Red Pill men keep acting on their myths, Darwinism is going to take them out and they’ll wind up in an evolutionary cul de sac.

  16. Hi Steven,
    So red pillers they say that a woman will choose to divorce and break that secure, trusting bond and fall in love for a man that is more successful and beautiful and will abuse and play those games with her.
    You think this is nonsense but how you actually prove it wrong aside from your clients’ success stories?

    1. Hi Alex. Go out and talk to some of the people you know who are already in long-term happy relationships. Ask them what the keys are to their happy relationships. Ask your friends. Ask your parents. Even if you are a quadriplegic, you will still have enough functional limbs to count how many times they’ll tell you to use “dread game” or any of the other crap that the red pill tells you to do.

      1. Sorry, but there is a big difference in what people say and what they do. And if you ask people about private topics such as relationships they often not tell you the truth. So this method of research you kindly asked me to do is unfortunately invalid. Do you have better research?

        1. Alex. Let’s break down our conversation thus far. You began by asking me how to prove the red pill wrong. I’ve provided a way for you to do that. You have chosen NOT to do that and INSTEAD have decided to dismiss it as invalid while providing ZERO evidence to back up your own assertion and nothing but pure SPECULATION that EVERY person you talk to would lie about what makes a happy relationship.

          You’re welcome to leave comments Alex, but I expect more effort from you than merely questioning and dismissing my assertions as invalid while providing no evidence to back up your own claims.

    2. To anyone reading this in 2019, I’d like to point out that what Alex is doing is called “sealioning“. From the Wikipedia page, “sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility. The troll pretends ignorance and feigns politeness, so that if the target is provoked into making an angry response, the troll can then act as the aggrieved party.”

      You’ll see this in the below responses. Alex isn’t really interested in having a civil conversation. He’s merely pretending to be civil while making increasingly ridiculous requests for evidence and ignoring any actual evidence that is presented to him.

  17. Thanks, Steven,
    Sorry, this seems trivial, but let me explain my assertion. I did not say that every person would lie, please read carefully, probably some will. I am sure you do not live in wonderland where people never lied to you. But there is more, what people want is not static, if you ask people what they want today, the next day they may not want the same. We are talking about breakups, do you think that people wanted the same when they did break up as when they were happy together? The answers may depend on culture where you live, on the kind of people you meet. This way of proving that red pill is nonsense is just so unreliable.
    This is why i asked you if you have better evidence, you did have evidence before you call something nonsense, right? I do not ask you to search evidence for me, but before you write an article on something being nonsense, did you search it for yourself to make sure it is really nonsense? Or was it just something you don’t like?

    1. To answer your question, people do often end up wanting different things over time and that is a reason why many couples break up. It’s true that it may be different across cultures/where you live/etc. However, even if you were to ask 20 different couples of different ages across different cultures, you’ll never hear people say that the red pill or “dread game” is what keeps them together and happy.

      Here’s a good link. Blogger Mark Manson asked almost 1,500 people what the keys to their happy relationships were, and the results were all overwhelmingly similar. None of them were about following red pill advice.

      As far as evidence goes, you’ll have to explain what you’re looking for. I’ve already explained that the concepts of “Alpha males” and “Beta males” were proven false by the very same person who popularized those terms in the first place. If that’s not sufficient for you then what exactly are you looking for?

  18. Hey Steven,
    I was thinking about that survey. We asked 1500 people and got 13 rules that they follow and have a 10+ years long term relationship, but what it proves actually? There may be another 1500 people who followed the same rules and it did not work for them. Why are we asking only happy couples and not asking those that was unhappy together?
    You are told your whole life that you need to have 10+ years LTR and marry. But then you are not told ever that there is a good chance that a divorce can ruin your whole life. This is why it is called the red pill, because it tells you the truth that people will not tell you for different reasons. Same goes with breakup reasons.
    So, the main focus of red pill is not on having happy LTR at all cost, but instead to stop ruining lives of so many men with divorce even after happy LTR. That even 10 years relationship is still temporary and can break anytime even if you follow all the rules. You have to be prepared for both LTR and breakup.

    1. Hey Alex. I find it interesting that you hold my ideas to a much higher level of scrutiny than you do the red pill ideas. Is that because my ideas are simply something you do not like? Perhaps there may be another 1,500 people who followed the same rules and it did not work out for them, but again that is mere speculation with no evidence.

      The red pill portrays itself as the truth but as I’ve already explained, it is overwhelmingly false. I’ve already explained that “alpha males” and “beta males” were proven false by Dr. David L. Mech, who is the very same person that originally popularized those terms. It’s not a secret at all that you want to marry the right person so that you won’t get a divorce. I mean, it’s literally part of the wedding vows that a marriage is intended to be a lifelong union. The red pill is also self-contradictory, claiming that women are not smart enough to use logic and yet are simultaneously smart enough to plot secret conspiracies against men. Those cannot both be true at the same time. Given all of these falsehoods, the red pill cannot possibly be considered anything remotely close to “the truth”.

      The red pill is not about saving men from divorce. The main focus of the red pill is hatred against women. Plain and simple. As I’ve already explained, to prove this you don’t need to look any further than the sidebar where it refers to women as “bitches”. The red pill makes the world a worse place for both men and women. For women, because it perpetuates hatred against them. And for men, because it teaches them misogyny instead of actual love advice.

      Again, I must ask what evidence you are willing to accept that the red pill is false. I’ve referenced a study that illustrates how the opinions of those around us change our perception of reality, even if those opinions do not make sense. I’ve linked an article where ~1,500 people show the keys to their relationships had nothing to do with the red pill. I’ve even explained that “alpha” and “beta” were proven false by the same person behind those terms. If all of this is insufficient for you, then exactly what evidence are you willing to accept that the red pill is false?

  19. Thank you for your reply, Steven,
    We are discussing your article therefore i am more interested in what you have to say. If i study other ideas than i would probably go discuss them elsewhere.
    Your speculation is that red pill rules are nonsense and you wanted to prove that with the survey. But if 1500 people have some 13 rules does not mean that these rules will work for everybody or that all other rules will not work. This survey just does not prove your speculation.

    Same with the rest, even if Alpha/Beta was proven false for wolves does not mean that it is false for humans, humans are not wolves. Plotting secret conspiracies is harder than using logic? Not necessarily. Someone called women “bitches” in some sidebar and therefore everyone is now haters? Really? This is also an unsupported speculation.

    What evidence do i want? The best you got. It is very hard to tell you beforehand what is acceptable. I do not require you to have evidence, you are free to believe things even without evidence (which is religion), but science is based on evidence, and what you got so far is weak in that regard. So far, to me, your assertions look just like speculations. So our conversation is like speculation vs counter-speculation. But just my or your speculations are not sufficient to call someone ideas nonsense or call them haters and such, right?

    1. Alex, you’re welcome to refer to my ideas as “speculation”. You’re allowed to call them whatever you like. I’ve backed up my ideas with studies performed by scientists. You have not.

      But, hey. You’re totally allowed to call my ideas “speculation” if it makes you feel better.

  20. Thank you for writing this. It’s nice knowing it’s coming from a man and knowing there’s still some good men out there. Reading the red pill makes me sick, they really do see women as sexual objects. I’m not ok with feminists who act like all men are rapists and I can’t stand men’s rights guys who view women all women as damaged goods to be mistreated. It’s awful.

  21. Steven,

    After just watching the Red Pill movie/propaganda film, I’m so thankful to find your response to the movement. After watching the film, I wanted to further research the RPM, aiming to better understand its followers. My search for information has led to to some horribly dark corners of the internet over the past few days. Frankly, I almost regret that whole thing.

    Your piece reminds me that the RPM is not mainstream and that logical, thoughtful, and self-aware people, specifically men, will not simply accept such hateful ideas as facts. Even your replies to obvious trolling efforts are comforting. Thank you for reminding me that women have male allies.

    I’m choosing to end my RPM research adventure on this high note.

    1. Jane,

      I appreciate your kind words. Your comment is a refreshing breath of fresh air among all the flak that I’ve been receiving for writing this. Seeing replies such as yours makes it all worth it.

  22. Wow, this article is total bullshit. I’ve never this amount of horseshit ever. You do realize you agree with the red pill, right? In that it’s all about looks, money, and status?

    By the “way they present themselves” thing. Could just admit you agree with the red pill about lms being all that matters, and that a hot guy can do nearly anything they wish.

    So all of these red pill things, about most of the so called “fair sex” are invalid? About how most of them are garbage, and other garbage is how to pump and dump, and to get anywhere in life at all?

    All of these stories they have, mgtow and r/theredpill both, and irl evidence just doesn’t count, because you say so? Ok. You also haven’t proved red pill wrong at all.

    You’ve done nothing but ad hominem too. To they and trp followers. Nothing but a entire article of it. Even if it is abuse, it still works, combined with lms.

    Can’t wait until I’m a hot guy. Then I’ll be in power. I’ll be in charge. I can then be the biggest asshole there is, and still get everything.

    1. Thomas, you do realize that bulls and horses are different animals, right? How on Earth can my article be both “bullshit” and “horseshit” at the same time??

      I did a Ctrl + F to look for where I said that “it’s all about looks, money, and status” and found nothing. Neither did I find where I said “way they present themselves”. I’m not sure why you’re putting quotation marks around words I didn’t say, but I can unequivocally say that I do NOT agree with the red pill.

      In addition, I never said that “these stories they have…just doesn’t count because [I] say so”. Instead, what I’ve done is provide studies by academic sources backing up why you don’t take advice from the red pill. The words you’ve put in my mouth would taste terrible without all the salt you’ve given me.

      On that note, I can only conclude that you have no idea what “ad hominem” even means, seeing as how you’ve incorrectly applied it to my argument. My article talks about: myself, what the red pill is, what the red pill says, academic studies, and myself some more. I have not dedicated my “entire article” to personal attacks against red pill followers.

      In your comment, you flat out admitted that the red pill is abuse. Thanks for proving my point.

  23. Quite glad I came across this article while searching Google for “want relationship scared red pill true”. I’m in a LTR and have one previous marriage that lasted 13 years. The final 5 years of which were spent fighting for the relationship after her affair. Finally realizing that I wasn’t dealing with a sane individual, I ended it.

    You are skillful in language as well. Proper all around it seems. This definitely puts your article and comments in a brighter light.

    Bravo

  24. In his September 18 comment above, the original poster says, “what I’ve done is provide studies by academic sources backing up why you don’t take advice from the red pill”. Where are the citations of sources proving that Red Pill thinking can be verified as false?

    Thanks for the interesting in-depth discussion.

  25. Applying ‘dreadgame’ in TRP is properly recommended ONLY in response to difficult and often disrespectful behavior. It is utilized as a means of behavior modification when simply investing more in the relationship or assertive communication will not be effective.

    It is designed to make women(it would apply equally to Men) take another look at your worth and the relationship and decide if their behavior will lead to losing a person of value. Applying dread is a last resort strategy which either works and improves the relationship or sets the groundwork for breakup and exploring new relationships.

    Some Women apply dread instinctively, in TRP parlance they call it “branch swinging” when a woman decides she is going to dump a guy and doesn’t want to be alone, so before breaking up, she flirts with other guys, setting up potential future relationships before the current one has ended.

    I don’t find “dreadgame” as ‘evil’ as you make it out to be. I have employed it instinctively when the women I was with was ignoring me (turning her back) and giving her full attention to another man when we were on a date at a dance club. Instead of trying to get her attention or acting butt-hurt I left her to her conversation and went to dance with the hottest woman in the club. My date eventually found me later and was even more attracted to me (and probably jealous of the other woman). We continued to date for some time and have sex after that.

    Prior to TRP this sort of test/behavior would have upset me and I probably would have said or did something that would have destroyed all attraction she had for me.
    I give full credit to TRP for teaching me how to handle that situation and applying dread was beneficial to me without being dehumanizing.

    1. Hi John. Dread game is never suitable. If she is being difficult or disrespectful toward you, then you need to sit down together and have an adult conversation with her about it. In an adult conversation, the both of you work as a team to solve the problem. And if you find yourself in a relationship where that 100% is not possible then you leave. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

      On that note, dread game is evil. When you use dread game, you’re preying on her insecurities in order to get her to do what you want. That’s not cool at all. By using dread game, you’re actively ignoring the issues at hand and hoping that she’s insecure enough to overlook whatever was bothering her in the first place. It’s self-contradictory. You argue that employing dread game shows you’re a person of value but it proves exactly the opposite. Using dread game shows that you don’t give a damn about what’s bothering her and that you’re not willing to work through any issues together as a team. Women don’t want to be with a man like that.

      As I’ve explained in my article, dread game “works” in the short-term since it does appear to give positive results temporarily (for example, if you’re dancing with her for one night at a dance club.) And as I’ve made clear in the previous paragraph, women don’t want to be with a man who uses dread game long term because it proves that you just do not care about her feelings.

      You give TRP credit for teaching you how to handle that situation. John, there is absolutely zero good advice in TRP that you won’t find in
      another published book such as Models by Mark Manson or Mate by Tucker Max. Moreover, TRP is loaded with women-hating and misogyny. If you disagree then you need look no further than the TRP sidebar where they refer to women as “bitches”. And as I’ve explained in the article, the people you surround yourself with affect your very perception of reality. It’s psychologically impossible to follow TRP and not have its misogyny seep into your subconscious.

      John, I urge you to spit out The Red Pill.

  26. Steven,

    The rules on your blog appear to be you have to approve comments before they are published. I don’t appreciate censorship or accept a forum where you have authority to pick and choose which comments are published so this will be a very short conversation.

    Based on your response I believe you lack the sophistication and empathy to properly read women in general, and particularly the woman in my nuanced example.

    Far from ‘hurting her feelings’ I proved that I was capable of attracting other women and I wasn’t going to compete for her attention. She appreciated how I handled the situation and told me afterwards.

    You have lost credibililty with me by painting all behavior and tactics with such broad strokes and by the superficial rush to judgement you make without understanding nuanced situations.

    This was our second date and she harbored no ill will towards me. However her attention and attraction was far greater for this other man at the time than it was for me hence she was ignoring me.

    Your blog and particularly your comprehension and response to my post
    appears prima facie to be superficial and immature. “Evil” and “Right and Wrong” when discussing gender relationships is a very simplistic and childish way to consider such complex interactions.

    Based on your writing I beleive you lack the sophistication and empathy to properly read women and situations.

    While I see many shortcomings on the TRP forums, you have nothing of value to offer on your blog except interesting titles.

    I will leave you to your marketing because you are hardly someone I would ever seek advice from. If you want to see much higher quality sophisticated articles I suggest you read girlschase dot com.

    1. Hello John. That is true. All comments on this blog need to be manually approved by an admin before they appear on the website. However, nothing is censored. All comments are approved regardless of who posts them or what they say, even the ones that simply hurl insults and offer nothing of value. John, you should also be aware that any WP admin has the ability to delete or edit any comment at any time–meaning that every blog and forum you participate in has the same censorship capabilities that you complain about here.

      The irony about you complaining about censorship is that TRP actually is censored. If you ever post anything questioning the validity of TRP you are almost instantly banned from that forum. Yet, you complain about perceived censorship on my site while accepting actual censorship on TRP. That’s a hypocritical double standard on your part.

      John, you saying that I lack sophistication and empathy is an ad hominem logical fallacy. On that note, I did a Ctrl + F to look for where I said ‘hurting her feelings’ and found nothing of the sort. I’m honestly not sure why you put that in quotes. In addition, I find it hilarious that you rushed to defend your story about dancing in a bar with a woman–telling me that I made a “superficial rush to judgement…without understanding nuanced situations”–when I actually did not refute your story at all. Seriously! If you think otherwise then go back and re-read my original comment. I devoted less than one whole sentence talking about your story. It’s funny how you call my comprehension “superficial and immature” when you outright imagined arguments in my original comment that never even existed.

      I find it equally baffling that you claim my use of the word “evil” is “simplistic and childish”. John, you are the one who originally used the word “evil” in your original comment. Your exact words are “I don’t find “dreadgame” as ‘evil’ as you make it out to be.” I used the word “evil” because I was quoting you. What point were you even trying to make there, John? Are you trying to call yourself “simplistic and childish”?

      Once again, you claiming that I lake sophistication and empathy is an ad hominem logical fallacy. Since you’ve said this twice in your comment, I felt it was appropriate for me to point this out twice in my reply.

      By the way, you’ve dismissed the flaws in TRP by simply saying that you “see many shortcomings on the TRP forums”, which is a funny way of hand-waving that fact that TRP actively promotes misogyny and rape and hatred against women. If you think otherwise then, once again, I refer you to the TRP’s own sidebar where they refer to women as “bitches”.

      Anyway, thanks for leaving me to my marketing. Are you trying to dread game me? Because it really doesn’t make any difference to me whether or not you follow my website. Before you commented, I didn’t even know you existed. In a few more hours, I will have forgotten about you and once again be unaware that you even exist. And I’ll have lost nothing of value.

      Finally, I want everyone reading this comment to understand that I’ve politely addressed every point you made in both of your comments, John. You have failed to extend the same courtesy to me. Instead, you decided to write nine whole paragraphs hurling insults and refuting arguments that I never even made. Perhaps that’s the ultimate concession on your part, John. After all, if you can’t logically refute arguments that I did make then you might as well refute imaginary arguments that I did not make. Isn’t that right?

  27. I’ll just get the ad hominem attacks out of the way:
    – you seem very argumentative for someone who recommends Dale Carnegie
    – first sexual experience just over a month ago, and now has enough experience to denounce an entire subculture (and being in a non-sexual relationship is not rocket science)
    – undershirt / body shape (which meant you ‘picked and chose’ when you read Models, I guess that’s me being authentic)

    – you keep referencing How To Win Friends and Influence People which is a very inauthentic way to behave (e.g. pretend to know everything about plants by listening intently, then you can become a ‘great conversationalist’) – this goes against the premise of Models which tells you to be authentic (which references / recommends No More Mr Nice Guy and the goal of being an integrated male)… this is actually a fault of Mark for recommending Dale. BUT Dale does teach you other aspects about making a good first impression. So even though a book doesn’t tell you to pick and choose, any rational male is able to ‘take the good and leave the bad’

    – plate spinning is just a metaphor – no one sees them as literal plates as your reaction implies
    – asking what’s wrong implies that women say what they mean, and mean what they say which you don’t need a peer-reviewed journal to figure out (e.g. you: what’s wrong? her: I’m fine…)
    – hypergamy is neither not good or bad, it just is… whether women act on that impulse is another story. Self-improvement is using hypergamy to your advantage, to dismiss it as non-sense can be akin to saying that love is enough to conquer all just because you asked her out first (even if you’re lacking in the traits that make up male hypergamy) – I understand that’s my argument, not yours, I just can’t see how hypergamy isn’t the default behaviour for many people
    – 20% – 80% (the Pareto Principle) is just a natural phenomenon that occurs in many events relating to inputs / outputs that just happened to also apply to sexual strategy
    – shit tests are nothing more than behavioural filters (e.g. just a way to either confirm or disprove a certain behaviour)
    – alpha fucks / beta bucks was coined by someone who does have a degree in behavioural psychology
    – on alpha wolves – it was debunked on the premise that being alpha was conflated with winning contests / battles. But, if it has more to do with breeding potential, the previous definition alpha still holds (since ‘alpha’ men do in-fact have more breeding opportunities). If you want to get meta, those ‘alpha’ behaviours only seem to occur under human intervention, therefore, couldn’t you say the same for actual humans?

    – the red pill encourages you to take a hard look at yourself which is why hypergamy is one of its main tenets – it helps you understand which parts of yourself you need to improve. Because, I agree, people can read the red pill and blame others but you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater by not acknowledging the self-analysis aspect of it (e.g. if I’m poor, and hypergamy dictates that I should increase my resources, then I have to change something). Note: I actually dislike the blaming aspect of red pill as much as you do
    – positive masculinity and long-term healthy relationships IS the end-goal for red pill (if you’ve read pillar ‘red pill’ books like Rational Male / Book of Pook) – the problem is when you give up ‘red pill’ behaviour in place of more ‘endearing’ actions like constant texting and show how much you care (example in Models) and wonder why she doesn’t call back
    – Models is a fundamentally red pill book… which talks about hypergamy (under different terms) and the act of being polarising yet you think that red pill as a whole is ‘flat out emotional abuse’
    – you seem to have a problem with the forum… of course, you’re going to run into different people / ideas… it’s impossible to agree with everything. That’s like saying you have to agree with everything Tucker Max says even though most of his earlier books would be extremely ’misogynistic’ by your standards
    – isn’t it contradictory to say that you should ‘never take advice from the red pill. Ever,’ when you said there was ‘some good gems of advice’? What if you only found about healthy eating and abundance mentality from the red pill – it’s not up for you or me to say where people should get their information (since I would never have discovered Models if it wasn’t for the red pill)

    – I would agree that dread game does have the potential for negative emotional ramifications
    – I will also agree that last-minute resistance can also have the potential to push boundaries too far
    – yes, using bitch is unnecessary

    – conventional PUAs (e.g. direct female manipulation) and positive masculinity (and by extension vulnerability) follow two very different mindsets / behaviours (note: the latter denounces the former very explicitly) but you lump them together under one umbrella term. Surely, you have the capacity to separate the two since Models is by red pill standards, a red pill book.

    – I guess it’s just a misunderstanding in semantics, your reaction to certain words, and your black and white approach to something you think is categorically black and white
    – I don’t agree with the article, but you do have balls for writing it…
    – I don’t even expect you to agree with me because as good ol’ Dale said, ‘nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right’

    1. Interesting comment. Let’s discuss.

      “– you seem very argumentative for someone who recommends Dale Carnegie

      – first sexual experience just over a month ago, and now has enough experience to denounce an entire subculture (and being in a non-sexual relationship is not rocket science)

      – undershirt / body shape (which meant you ‘picked and chose’ when you read Models, I guess that’s me being authentic)”

      Your points 1-3 are, in fact, ad hominem logical fallacies. I guess it’s redundant for me to point that out when you’ve already done so. Also, I never said that my first sexual experience was just over a month ago. That’s just when I happened to write the article. If you’re going to use my own articles in ad hominem attacks against me, at least read what I’ve written, will you??

      – you keep referencing How To Win Friends and Influence People which is a very inauthentic way to behave (e.g. pretend to know everything about plants by listening intently, then you can become a ‘great conversationalist’) – this goes against the premise of Models which tells you to be authentic (which references / recommends No More Mr Nice Guy and the goal of being an integrated male)… this is actually a fault of Mark for recommending Dale. BUT Dale does teach you other aspects about making a good first impression. So even though a book doesn’t tell you to pick and choose, any rational male is able to ‘take the good and leave the bad’

      I agree that HTWFaIP feels a bit inauthentic at times. It’s good for learning soft skills but it is best read in light of what Mark Manson recommends about authenticity. That’s why I recommend reading BOTH books.

      I disagree that “any rational male is able to take the good and leave the bad” when it comes to TRP, for two reasons already mentioned in my article. 1) You need to already have the frame of reference to know what constitutes good vs bad advice, but you wouldn’t have that if you didn’t already know what the good advice already was, and 2) the “bad” seeps in on an unconscious level, even if (and especially when) you think it doesn’t

      – plate spinning is just a metaphor – no one sees them as literal plates as your reaction implies

      I do not imply that women are literal pieces of kitchenware

      – asking what’s wrong implies that women say what they mean, and mean what they say which you don’t need a peer-reviewed journal to figure out (e.g. you: what’s wrong? her: I’m fine…)

      Asking what’s wrong shows that you care about what’s bothering her, and it’s the most direct and effective way to find out what is wrong

      – hypergamy is neither not good or bad, it just is… whether women act on that impulse is another story. Self-improvement is using hypergamy to your advantage, to dismiss it as non-sense can be akin to saying that love is enough to conquer all just because you asked her out first (even if you’re lacking in the traits that make up male hypergamy) – I understand that’s my argument, not yours, I just can’t see how hypergamy isn’t the default behaviour for many people

      I never said hypergamy was bad, nor that it isn’t the default behavior for many people. I said that “women can’t be blanket generalized as hypergamous” (exact quote) because such a broad generalization is useless at best and misleading at worst.

      – 20% – 80% (the Pareto Principle) is just a natural phenomenon that occurs in many events relating to inputs / outputs that just happened to also apply to sexual strategy

      Yes, the Pareto Principle is in fact a thing. However, you’ve applied it to sexual strategy without any evidence.

      – shit tests are nothing more than behavioural filters (e.g. just a way to either confirm or disprove a certain behaviour)

      If you say so. But if the goal of TRP is “long-term healthy relationships” like you claim, then I’d rather be with someone who knows how to communicate effectively rather than someone who regularly resorts to such tests

      – alpha fucks / beta bucks was coined by someone who does have a degree in behavioural psychology

      I’m not sure how his educational background is related to the validity of the phrase itself

      – on alpha wolves – it was debunked on the premise that being alpha was conflated with winning contests / battles. But, if it has more to do with breeding potential, the previous definition alpha still holds (since ‘alpha’ men do in-fact have more breeding opportunities). If you want to get meta, those ‘alpha’ behaviours only seem to occur under human intervention, therefore, couldn’t you say the same for actual humans?

      Sure. There’s nothing wrong with having more “breeding opportunities”. The issue arises when those breeding opportunities occur through the dehumanization and violation of women.

      – the red pill encourages you to take a hard look at yourself which is why hypergamy is one of its main tenets – it helps you understand which parts of yourself you need to improve. Because, I agree, people can read the red pill and blame others but you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater by not acknowledging the self-analysis aspect of it (e.g. if I’m poor, and hypergamy dictates that I should increase my resources, then I have to change something). Note: I actually dislike the blaming aspect of red pill as much as you do

      There’s nothing wrong with self-improvement. However, the red pill teaches misogyny and hatred against women in addition to everything else which invalidates it as a tool for self-improvement.

      – positive masculinity and long-term healthy relationships IS the end-goal for red pill (if you’ve read pillar ‘red pill’ books like Rational Male / Book of Pook) – the problem is when you give up ‘red pill’ behaviour in place of more ‘endearing’ actions like constant texting and show how much you care (example in Models) and wonder why she doesn’t call back

      It’s strange to claim that “positive masculinity and long-term healthy relationships is the end-goal for red pill” when most of what they teach is misogyny and toxic masculinity. Yes, Mark Manson specifically recommends not doing those actions because they come off as “needy”. However, there is a false dichotomy in your point. It is possible to spit out the red pill AND still not come off as needy.

      – Models is a fundamentally red pill book… which talks about hypergamy (under different terms) and the act of being polarising yet you think that red pill as a whole is ‘flat out emotional abuse’

      Mark Manson specifically condemns the red pill on his website https://markmanson.net/whats-the-problem-with-feminism

      – you seem to have a problem with the forum… of course, you’re going to run into different people / ideas… it’s impossible to agree with everything. That’s like saying you have to agree with everything Tucker Max says even though most of his earlier books would be extremely ’misogynistic’ by your standards

      Yes, it’s impossible to agree with everything. However, that is not what I am saying. The problem is that the red pill specifically advocates misogyny and hatred against women, thus invalidating it as a self-improvement tool. That’s why I’ve only recommended Mate by Tucker Max and not any of his earlier books.

      – isn’t it contradictory to say that you should ‘never take advice from the red pill. Ever,’ when you said there was ‘some good gems of advice’? What if you only found about healthy eating and abundance mentality from the red pill – it’s not up for you or me to say where people should get their information (since I would never have discovered Models if it wasn’t for the red pill)

      It’s not at all contradictory. Even though there are “some good gems of advice”, the overwhelming bad in the red pill results in a net negative for the reader.

      – I would agree that dread game does have the potential for negative emotional ramifications

      That’s why you don’t do it.

      – I will also agree that last-minute resistance can also have the potential to push boundaries too far

      Such as sexual assault and rape. Let’s not hand-wave that fact away.

      – yes, using bitch is unnecessary

      It’s also misogynic and hateful against women. Let’s not hand-wave that fact away either.

      – conventional PUAs (e.g. direct female manipulation) and positive masculinity (and by extension vulnerability) follow two very different mindsets / behaviours (note: the latter denounces the former very explicitly) but you lump them together under one umbrella term. Surely, you have the capacity to separate the two since Models is by red pill standards, a red pill book.

      Actually, I believe that manipulating women is a bad thing and positive masculinity is a good thing. I do not believe they fall under one umbrella term. And again, Mark Manson condemns the red pill on his website.

      – I guess it’s just a misunderstanding in semantics, your reaction to certain words, and your black and white approach to something you think is categorically black and white

      I’m not sure what this point is referring to. You’ll have to be more specific.

      – I don’t agree with the article, but you do have balls for writing it…

      Thanks.

      – I don’t even expect you to agree with me because as good ol’ Dale said, ‘nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right’

      That’s fine. As I pointed out in the article, I didn’t write any of this to convince any current TRP’ers (or you, Ralph) to spit out the red pill. I wrote it to warn newcomers against taking it in the first place. Those are the people who I’ve written this article for and those are the people who matter. They’re free to judge the merits of my arguments for themselves and follow my advice if they think I’m right, or ignore my advice if they think I’m wrong. Judging by the positive feedback I’ve received from people who do not follow TRP, it appears I’m doing a good job.

  28. Great discussion so far, and I haven’t read it all. Of course there are fallacies in the red pill approach, yet if the male suitor is wanting to engage with a woman who is in her breeding mentality then perhaps she will be looking for a potential spouse that does not act like an overly clingy toddler ( as she will want to engage perhaps with a real toddler she may hope to hear),… does not act like a brother or close male cousin ( perhaps she feels weirded out by associating that approach with romance and procreation), …and does act like someone who is caring but decisive enough to raise a family without her, and perhaps get a new mother fir her potential child(dren) quite quickly for women endure the subconscious reality that some mother’s die in childbirth, and some infants survive their mothers death in labour.

  29. Although you’re making few compelling arguments against TRP, you didn’t seem to provide any meaningful solutions to what already troubles many young men today. It is hard to take what you write seriously because of the conflict of interests between the dating advice you’re trying to sell and what TRP is already offering for free.

    Due to its decentralized nature of the movement, like other movements, TRP is also prone to some element of fundamentalists, in this case, misogyny. However, one can also say the same with feminism and misandry. Like everything else in life, people should make their own judgment and take things with a grain of salt.

    I think what makes TRP attractive to many gentlemen today is that the mainstream media and western society, in general, are increasingly becoming hostile against young straight men. Many men today are lacking a proper role model to follow, and TRP is simply filling this gap. Unlike what you’re offering, TRP is not just an ideological movement, but there’s also a large support community for men, where they can share their own anecdotal stories and some awareness relating to the many struggles that men face, something that mainstream media doesn’t seem to care but rather try to minimize them. I think you just nitpicking the bad fruits of the whole movement, which by the way, you can do it with almost any movement out there. Perhaps you misunderstand TRP with your preconceptions, the point of TRP is really not about mysoginist rant against women or calling women a plate, but it’s really about what one can do to succeed in today’s society as a man.

    Based on what you’ve written, I infer that you are an advocate of building a trusting relationship with a woman and you paint TRP movement is something against that. While I agree that there’s a lot of element of mistrust of women in TRP such as advice against marriage, I don’t think this mistrust is rooted in some unexplained misogyny like you seem to imply. There’s empirical and anecdotal evidence for this from rising divorce rate initiated by mostly women, alimony, child support, hypergamy, and so on. I think that TRP is simply a defensive / risk management strategy for men to look after his freedom and maximize his own interest in today’s society. Because let’s be real, in a relationship a man can only influence at most the 50% outcome of the relationship. The only half is completely outside of his control.

    It seems like a utopia today where a man can develop a fully trusting relationship with women, something you suggest that it is reasonably within reach and I think many redpillers would like that to happen. However, empirical evidence has, again and again, indicated that this is not the case. And that’s why there’s TRP today. Do you have empirical evidence that would dispute TRP? I agree that some of their statistics such as 80-20 rule are complete crap, but the other evidence still suggests that a smaller population of men are having sex with the majority of women.

    1. Hi Zoltan, you have stated that “It is hard to take what you write seriously because of the conflict of interests between the dating advice you’re trying to sell and what TRP is already offering for free.” You should be aware that every article on this website is available for free. Therefore, the alleged conflict of interest that you complain about does not exist. You are correct that this article offers few solutions to men’s dating problems; that is because the entire rest of my site is dedicated to offering those solutions.

      You are hand-waving away the misogyny that exists within TRP. It actively promotes dehumanization, hatred, assault, and rape against women. Thus, it should not be followed. This is not simply “due to its decentralized nature of the movement” as you suggest. The posts written by the top moderator of TRP himself include scorn and contempt toward women. The leaders of TRP intentionally perpetuate hatred against women and censor dissenting opinions by deleting such posts and banning those users who dare to question TRP.

      In what ways are the mainstream media and western society becoming hostile toward young straight men? I honestly don’t see this happening. As for role models, it’s true that many men today are lacking a proper role model to follow. However, TRP does not offer a good way to fill that gap. As I’ve said before, TRP promotes dehumanization, hatred, assault, and rape against women, making it a terrible role model.

      In addition, the support community offered by TRP is horrendous. It’s not a support community at all, but rather an echo chamber where any voices that even slightly question TRP are silenced and banned until you have a forum of people whose fellowship and camaraderie is based on playing the victim card and hatred toward women. Tell me Zoltan, if you were diagnosed with cancer, do you think any of your TRP friends would drive you to get chemo? If your house burned down in a fire, would any of them offer you a place to crash? If you lost your job, would any of them help you get back on your feet? This is what people in a positive support community do for each other. This is not what any of your TRP friends would do for you.

      Once again, I’ll say it for the second time that the misogyny present in TRP is perpetuated by the leaders themselves. The top mod of TRP says that women are children. Far from simply “nitpicking the bad fruits of the whole movement”, I assert that TRP is wholly based around hatred toward women.

      TRP is invalid as “simply a defensive/risk management strategy” because it encourages behaviors that are destructive toward relationships. For example, playing dread game is psychologically harmful to someone you’re in a relationship with. Viewing her actions as if they were “shit tests” and blanket generalizing women as hypergamous are also harmful. Even though you can’t directly control her actions in the relationship, you can become a better and more desirable man to women. On that note, you cite ”rising divorce rate initiated by mostly women, alimony, child support, hypergamy” with alleged certainty even though you haven’t provided any evidence of this. According to Bloomberg, the divorce rate is actually going down. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-25/millennials-are-causing-the-u-s-divorce-rate-to-plummet

      Finally, you conclude your comment by asking if I “have empirical evidence that would dispute TRP?” To wit, I’ve explained that TRP’s leaders actively promote hatred against women and that it’s not just a few “bad fruits”, that TRP does not offer a support community at all but rather a heavily censored brainwashing echo chamber, and that TRP promotes behaviors that are self-destructive to relationships. Specifically what other empirical evidence are you looking for, Zoltan?

  30. As a guy who partly believes in the RP himself I am always looking for other oppinions, to see how much of the RP sounds legit and how much of it sounds bs and that’s why I read your article. I don’t believe in MGTOW and I don’t think “chase money, then the women will come chasing you” is a good idea either. I can write so much about this topic but it would take too long.

    However, I read your article and was very disappointed. You wrote more than 3000 words but never made a valid point on why TRP is wrong. You are saying TRP uses misogany and hatred against women in order to build your whole argument around this article AND still you did NOT disprove anything TRP itself says. Your job was to debunk TRP theory but all you did was saying TRP got it all wrong

    I am also sure you use many RP content in order to help your clients because most men have probably jumped on that RP wagon anyway, they know what’s going on. There is a reason why so many men fail with women and make the same bad experiences becaue AWALT is most likely true. Men are the same, just like women are the same otherwise your page here wouldn’t even exist since you “consult” your clients based on female/male nature and behaviour.

    Do you want to know the single most logical reason why the RP is most likely true? An average man has to ask countless of women, either online or in real life to even get a date and I am not even counting the flakes, rejections and ghosting he is suffering, Biology has favoured women, while men have very low standards because of that. Thats what TRP is all about.

    It is estimated that 125 Mio americans, half the US population are singles, and around 17 Mio germans are singles, and around 19 Mio in GB are singles too just to name a few nationalities. Women choose who they want and by accepting that you also acknowledge TRP.

    And btw, the Alpha wolf is just an outdated term, it’s the Alpha Lion who eats first, lets the females do the hunting and mates with them! While I believe that most men can’t be alpha I highly believe that women still look after those tall, big and maybe also rich Alphas. You can’t deny reality and female nature.

    1. Hello, Berti. When I first started receiving hateful comments on this article, I was amazed at how idiotic most of them were. Many of the salty comments left by RP followers were outlandishly logically inconsistent, making arguments that did not hold water if subjected to an iota of scrutiny. After a while, however, I ceased to be amazed. The comments were still idiotic, sure, but they were all starting to look the same. None of them said anything new. None of them were idiotic in ways I hadn’t seen before.

      You, Berti, have amazed me. Well done.

      Berti, you have said that my job “was to debunk TRP theory”. Last I checked, I was the editor of the Quietly Romantic newsletter. Not you. You, Berti, are simply a rando leaving a nasty comment on my blog. Therefore, the person who dictates what my “job” is…is me. Not you.

      The “job” of this article was to explain why TRP ought not to be followed. If I did my job correctly, then the reader should understand several reasons why they should not follow TRP—misogyny and hatred against women being chief amongst them. Since you have demonstrated that you understand this article is about the inherent misogyny in TRP, it is clear that I have done my “job” correctly.

      You have said that “I am also sure you use many RP content in order to help your clients”. That is also untrue. Here’s a simple way to prove it. If my article was too illogical, then I should get negative reactions from both RP followers and non-RP followers. After all, logic is universal. However, that has not been the case. The reactions of non-RP followers to this article have all been positive. I have received comments and emails from non-RP followers thanking me for writing this. The only hate I’ve received are from RP followers, and most of their comments are merely ad hominems and logical inconsistencies. Don’t believe me? Check out the comments for yourself!

      In a feeble attempt to prove TRP true, you have said, “Do you want to know the single most logical reason why the RP is most likely true? An average man has to ask countless of women, either online or in real life to even get a date and I am not even counting the flakes, rejections and ghosting he is suffering.” That does not prove TRP true at all. How on Earth does the number of times a man has to ask women out even begin to relate to the truthfulness or falsehood of TRP??

      Also, you have stated that “It is estimated that 125 Mio americans, half the US population are singles, and around 17 Mio germans are singles, and around 19 Mio in GB are singles too just to name a few nationalities.” Once again, the number of people in the world does not even begin to relate to the truthfulness or falsehood of TRP. You are welcome to imagine it does, though, if it makes you feel better about yourself. But then you’d be the one who’s “denying reality”.

      Finally, you have claimed that “it’s the Alpha Lion who eats first, lets the females do the hunting and mates with them”. Berti, a simple 2-second Google search would have told you that there is no such thing as an Alpha Lion. https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-an-alpha-male-Lion-if-he-is-beaten

      Berti, two of my brain cells committed Seppuku reading your comment. Congratulations.

      1. Wow, just wow. I really expected here a mature guy using LOGICAL arguments but instead your reply was even worse than your article.

        I will try to keep it short this time because I think you really lack of reasoning. I have read all of your comments here, maybe I am wrong but you come along as of you may have Asperger or something like that. Again this is not meant to be an insult but your way of reasoning is very “special” to say the least.

        1. “The “job” of this article was to explain why TRP ought not to be followed.”

        And that’s why you failed! You didn’t even understand the RP theorie and you still wrote an article on why you shouldn’t take advice from the RT. And most importantly you just failed giving a simple reason why RP is bad except for saying “it’s misogony stuff…”. No, TRP itself is not about mysogony or trashing women. It’s dating coaches who use TRP and give them a bad name, that’s why I said I don’t believ in everything those guys say. However, TRP only explains female nature, it doesn’t say “women are all bitches wah wah”. So again you failed at making a simple argument against it.

        2.”The reactions of non-RP followers to this article have all been positive. I have received comments and emails from non-RP followers thanking me for writing this. ”

        You don’t say? lol Of course you have, those who don’t like TRP will support you and since you failed explaining why TRP shouldn’t be followed they never really knew what TRP was all about in the first place because just like you, they are not educated on this topic.

        3. “How on Earth does the number of times a man has to ask women out even begin to relate to the truthfulness or falsehood of TRP??”

        It proves HYPERGAMY for instance, something that TRP claims and you referred to in your article. lol

        4. “Once again, the number of people in the world does not even begin to relate to the truthfulness or falsehood of TRP. You are welcome to imagine it does, though, if it makes you feel better about yourself. But then you’d be the one who’s “denying reality”.”

        In other words, you have no answer. I knew it.

        5.”Berti, a simple 2-second Google search would have told you that there is no such thing as an Alpha Lion. https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-an-alpha-male-Lion-if-he-is-beaten

        WOW, you just lost all you credibility. You quote from a Quora thread? LOL Ok dude, I knew you were not the brightest guy on earth when it comes to this topic since your webside here proves you rarely have anything to offer but as a grown man quoting something from Quora to prove his point, which btw is wrong anyway, makes me speecheless.

        Good look dude, you wil need it.

        1. Hello again, Berti. Back for round 2? Let’s go through your latest comment, shall we?

          You have stated that I have not given any valid reasons not to follow RP except for that fact that “it’s misogyny stuff”. Berti, the very fact that TRP promotes misogyny is a perfectly valid reason not to follow it. You claim that TRP does not say “women are all bitches”. In response to that, I refer you to the sidebar of TRP where they, in fact, do refer to women as “bitches”. Also, TRP constantly says that “AWALT” or “All Women are Like That”. Ergo, TRP literally says that all women are bitches.

          From there, the next part of your comment falls apart. You said that I “failed explaining why TRP shouldn’t be followed”. I won’t reiterate in detail that I, in fact, did.

          Next, you claim that the number of times a man has to ask women out proves hypergamy. However, you have failed to dedicate even a single sentence explaining why that is. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

          From there on out, you comment becomes even more nonsensical. When I explained that the number of people in the world does not even begin to relate to the truthfulness or falsehood of TRP, you simply said “In other words, you have no answer.” What you failed to do, however, is dedicate even a single sentence to explaining your position.

          Finally, yes I quoted from a Quora thread when I said that Alpha Lions do not exist. You’re welcome to include your own sources to refute it. After all, you must have some, right? Or am I to believe that you simply made up everything you know about Alpha Lions?

          Berti, thanks for keeping it short this time. As Alberto Brandolini says, “The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.” I’m glad that I didn’t have to spend as much energy refuting your second comment as I did your first one.

          1. You are getting worse and worse in your argumentation, I wonder how old you are.

            “Berti, the very fact that TRP promotes misogyny is a perfectly valid reason not to follow it. ”

            Again, it doesn’t promote misogony, it explains female nature, just like it explains male nature. The fact that you don’t understand the difference speaks for itself. And another thing is, you still failed to debunk TRP theory. Saying something is wrong because you don’t like it doesn’t make it wrong in any way.

            “You claim that TRP does not say “women are all bitches”. In response to that, I refer you to the sidebar of TRP where they, in fact, do refer to women as “bitches”. ”

            Man it’s like I am arguing with a 12 year old boy. Wth has TRP theory to do with some angry men’s oppinions on women who call themselves red pilled? If a man calls women “bitches” and himself MGTOW then it doesn’t affect TRP theory in itself. That’s like saying the Republicans are bad people because Trump is their leader or all Democrats are womanizers because of Bill Clinton and JFK. lol

            “Also, TRP constantly says that “AWALT” or “All Women are Like That”. Ergo, TRP literally says that all women are bitches.”

            Just lol at your reasoning.

            Yes it does, TRP claims AWALT and there is nothing wrong with it because it just explains FEMALE NATURE which you constantly refuses to understand. And All Men Are Like That as well! I am sure you don’t give a damn when you watch porn about whether women get objectyfied either…oh right you don’t watch porn, huh? Stop being such a white knight.

            TRP doesn’t claim “women are bitches”, you are confusing the biology behind the theory with random men’s oppinions on women. And the word “bitch” is wrong anyway, if at all women don’t sleep around with random guys they are looking for the best of the best.

            “Next, you claim that the number of times a man has to ask women out proves hypergamy. However, you have failed to dedicate even a single sentence explaining why that is. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

            Dude, who wrote this article without giving any counter evidence, me or you?

            Women choose men they want to mate with, women have higher sexual value, they have the power in the dating world and they look for the best of the best. And here is the funny thing: you have a business, advising men on how to date women, which basically proves what I just said: because men are the weaker power in the dating world, they need advice. lol You got that? The internet has countless webpages about Pick UP, Dating strategies and all that just directed to men because they struggle with women. And why do they struggle? You know the answer. Your web page is a RESULT of HYPERGAMY. LOL

            “When I explained that the number of people in the world does not even begin to relate to the truthfulness or falsehood of TRP, you simply said “In other words, you have no answer.” What you failed to do, however, is dedicate even a single sentence to explaining your position.”

            A smart man would understand the connection. There are more singles and divorces than ever, because women aren’t just looking for providers anymore, they earn their own money, they don’t need the nice guy provider, they look for the tall handsome guy who also earns good money. They go on tinder or other dating sides and reject like 80-90% of all males. Why? Because they can. That’s what female nature is all about. And that’s why we have so many men complaining about not getting any women, that’s why they come for advice to you. And you know it!

            “Finally, yes I quoted from a Quora thread when I said that Alpha Lions do not exist. You’re welcome to include your own sources to refute it. After all, you must have some, right? Or am I to believe that you simply made up everything you know about Alpha Lions?”

            Dude I am not here to educate you on things that are common sense. If you are too lazy looking up real ressources you wouldn’t ask such questions.

            The male Lion protects its pack. In order for him to be the king of the pack he has to fight the previous pack leader or rivals. The female lions therefore mate with him because he has the strongest genes, until the next alpha lion comes along and beats him. The female lions do most of the hunting and still the male alpha lion is the one who eats first because he is the most resprected.

            “Although males are forced to hunt when not part of a pride, as pride members they are primarily responsible for defending the pride and territory. ”

            “Additionally, females who refuse male breeding attempts may be killed or banished. Among the males of a pride — who are often brothers — the largest male is the dominant one. Typically, the largest males have the largest and bulkiest manes, which help deter aggressors.”

            https://animals.mom.me/tell-lion-leader-5635.html

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leGXRDvyz-c

          2. Welp, two more of my brain cells have just performed a leap of faith out my ear. Thanks Berti.

            TRP refers to women using such terms as “plates” and “bitches”. These terms do nothing to describe female nature. What these terms do do, however, is dehumanize women. Thus, TRP does in fact promote misogyny toward women.

            In talking about TRP, I never mentioned MGTOW, or Republicans, or Trump, or Democrats, or Bill Clinton. Not sure why you brought those up in your comment. What I am saying is that the leaders of TRP themselves are calling women “bitches”. After all, the word “bitches” appears in the sidebar of TRP, which means that it was put there by a TRP mod. There is literally a screenshot of TRP calling women “bitches” on this webpage. How on Earth can you claim otherwise?

            Yes, this is a website that advises men on dating. However, that does not prove all women are hypergamous. Many women are monogamous, and are looking to marry their Mr. Right and stay with him for the rest of their lives.

            Finally, the YouTube link you posted is a non-scientific link that does not have the term “Alpha Lion” anywhere except in the title. I watched the whole thing and nowhere did they say anything about an “Alpha Lion”. Similarly, the first link you provided also does not mention Alpha Lions at all. I really am starting to think that you just made up everything you know about Alpha Lions.

  31. I stopped reading when you wrote “Alphas and Betas don’t exist in nature”. A scientifically proven fact that they exist not only in wild nature but also between humans.

    If you can be blind like that, then there is no help to you and you will end up heartbroken when your gf will cheat on you with some Alpha.

    The good news is, you can then go to Reddit and learn some good TRP stuff.

    1. So, it’s safe to assume then that you didn’t even click the link I included where the guy who originally popularized the terms “Alpha” and “Beta” later said he made a mistake??

  32. For those genuinely interested in Redpill theory on Dread, more comprehensive information can be found below.

    [link removed by Administrator]

    After reading it you may have a more sophisticated and balanced opinion on the merits of the use of dread and on other Redpill theories.

    Dread game is not a black and white “scummy tactic”, “emotional abuse”, “cutting deeply”, “Psychological abuse”, if it was only these things it would be highly ineffective.

    Instead the first 5 levels of Dread are about improving oneself

  33. Redpill is not advertising in the slightest, they have noting to sell or advertise it is an ideology that you attacked, that link is to a post explaining the theory of Dread according to Redpill.

    They aren’t selling anything, and receive no monetary gain for their posts, and clearly you are, and you are doing a very poor job at that.

    Of all people Steven Zawila you need to read that link so that you at least understand the thing you pretend to hate and paint with a very broad brush as “Psychological Abuse”

    Of course you are a lier and you censored out the link in my post because it is far more nuanced than your simpleton argument has stated and the whole article discredits you and any of your arguments completely. Or perhaps you are threatened that your precious readers will actual read the article, agree with out, and conclude you are just a simpleton not worth conversing with.

    For those following along at home just google ‘the 12 levels of dread’ and you will be able to understand far better than Steven Zawila what employing dread really means and you can decide for yourself if it is useful or not to you in your future relationships.

    1. Hello, John. Back again? I thought you were going to “leave me to my marketing”. Just couldn’t resist my deviously good looks, could you? No shame in that.

      Contrary to what you have said, I do not receive monetary gain for my posts either. All articles on the website are available to read free of charge. But if you’ve disliked what I’ve written that much, I can get you a refund on that free content you hated. How’s that sound?

  34. Hello,

    I read the post and some of the comments. I think there is some confusion here about AWALT. From the red pill perspective I got to know, this is not about all women being bitches and hating on them for it, but rather trying to understand their nature.

    I am sure many red pillers who get insulting and judgemental are coming from an emotional point of view. Please consider that before making a judgement on the whole philosophy dear author.

    All women are driven by their biological impulses to secure the highest value mate they can. When a women cheats or breaks up with her partner, it is because she believes she can attract a higher value mate.

    AWALT is there to caution men from thinking that their current partner is unique and different from all other women regarding her basic nature.

    Of course this doesn’t mean that she will cheat or break up when a better prospect comes along.
    By keeping AWALT in mind men do not get complacent and are reminded to keep increasing their value and avoid developing unhealthy fixations.

    Personally, I think women should be able to freely pursue any kind of lifestyle. Isn’t that what female empowerment is. But equality goes both ways and I am also very much in favour of male empowerment. For example, a man has every right to not consider a women with this kind of lifestyle for a long term relationship.

    1. Hi David. I do understand that many red pillers who get insulting are coming from an emotional point of view. I agree that it’s only natural for everyone to try and secure the highest value mate that they can. I’ve personally got a case of yellow fever myself, which has worked in my favor in the US since everyone else seems to be attracted to women with blonde hair and eyes like the sky.

      There’s nothing wrong with self-improvement, or avoiding one-itis, or striving to understand human nature, or even having sex with many different women. My issue with TRP is that it hands you a (no pun intended) blood red lens to view the world through. TRP blanket generalizes and dehumanizes women. It views women not as equals, but as objects and animals such as “plates” and “bitches”. Many of the behaviors advocated by TRP are outright abhorrent. “Pushing past her last minute resistance” is–to put it bluntly–rape.

      I do agree with empowerment for both genders. Both men and women. And a huge reason why I’m against TRP is because it’s not about equality at all. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, TRP is about misogyny and hatred against women. I’m not cherry-picking when I say that…the top mod of TRP himself says that women are only children. That’s why I recommend taking advice from published books rather than following TRP. You get the same self-improvement advice, minus all the misogyny.

  35. Steven, you didn’t post my answer to your last reply which means you can’t argue it and are afraid of debating. I knew that. But what I didn’t know was that you actually post on feminism blogs as well which now makes sense to me. lol

    Again, since you lack of simple comprehension skills I’ll give you a tip:

    A theory is not debunked or wrong just because some of its followers are using it for their hatred. TRP wasn’t created on reddit, the red pill has been created, mentioned and even illustrated in books decades ago by guys like Rollo Tomassi, Neil Strauss or David Deida. None of them EVER used the Word “bitch” in their books. I wonder why those books have never been banned? Because they are popular and for some reason nobody ever tried to debate them.

    1. Every single comment you’ve made so far is available here for all to see. What on Earth are you talking about?

      And again, the issue which you’ve continually failed to address is that TRP promotes misogyny which invalidates it as a self-improvement tool.

  36. Redpill promotes self improvement.
    Some Redpill users(not the theory itself) are prejudiced against women.
    Therefore Redpill theory does not promote male self improvement.

    Two logical fallacies in one statement, Steven you have to go back to your logic class and try again.

  37. Redpill promotes male self improvement.
    Some Redpill users(not the theory itself) are prejudiced against women.
    Therefore Redpill theory does not promote male self improvement.

    Two logical fallacies in one statement, Steven you have to go back to your logic class and try again.

  38. “TRP refers to women using such terms as “plates” and “bitches”. These terms do nothing to describe female nature. What these terms do do, however, is dehumanize women. Thus, TRP does in fact promote misogyny toward women.”

    WRONG, WRONG and WRONG. Like I said, you did a terrible job on the topic because you didn’t even research what the TRP was all about.

    Here is your mistake:

    You are confusing TRP with Reddit! TRP is not what you read on Reddit. I already said mutliple times that guys on reddit are using TRP for their hatred on women. And I also said that guys like Rollo Tomassi and many others have written books about TRP and none of them ever called women “bitches” or anything like that. If you can’t see the difference you are either lacking common sense or just being ignorant on purpose.

    “In talking about TRP, I never mentioned MGTOW, or Republicans, or Trump, or Democrats, or Bill Clinton. Not sure why you brought those up in your comment. ”

    It doesn’t surprize me now, that’s why I seriously asked you whether you suffer from Aspergers or anything like that. I used those examples to illustrate that TRP is NOT reddit. That’s why I said not all Republicans are like Trump, not all Democrats are wominzers like Clinton etc.

    “What I am saying is that the leaders of TRP themselves are calling women “bitches”. ”

    Again, who are those leaders? What are their names? Or are you just referring to a bunch of unknown reddit losers?

    “After all, the word “bitches” appears in the sidebar of TRP, which means that it was put there by a TRP mod. There is literally a screenshot of TRP calling women “bitches” on this webpage. How on Earth can you claim otherwise?”

    Because like I said, reddit Mods and users have NOT invented TRP theory. Your topic should have been named “Why you never take advice from the Reddit forum”. Trust me, that is a big difference.

    “Yes, this is a website that advises men on dating. However, that does not prove all women are hypergamous. Many women are monogamous, and are looking to marry their Mr. Right and stay with him for the rest of their lives.”

    And that is what I wanted to discuss amongst other theories, that’s why I said I don’t believe everything TRP claims, even though most of it seems to be legit.

    “Finally, the YouTube link you posted is a non-scientific link that does not have the term “Alpha Lion” anywhere except in the title. I watched the whole thing and nowhere did they say anything about an “Alpha Lion”.”

    It was a docu on BBC if I am not mistaken. There are many docus about this topic and they all say that mal lions are the pack leaders, the ones who eat first, who mate with all females, protect their packs, but also kill their own cubs at times. I have been a huge Lion fan since I was a little kid so know my stuff.

    And just for the records, I never said I believe in human alpha males, I said Lion alpha males exist because unlike wolf packs, their social life is a lot different and that’s why you never see male wolfs fighting each other for the leader spot but male Lions do.

      1. lol Stop acting dumb Steven.

        The fact that you can’t even argue the theory itself tells a lot about your personality and lack of knowledge about the whole topic. Like I said you are fighting REDDIT USERS and calling TRP out without even trying to understand the nature of TRP. That’s like saying you hate Football and therefore any Sport is bad for society.

        I know you are angry but I can’t help you. You are no different than many reddit users only difference is you are on the other end of the extreme and ignorant about the whole thing.

  39. Steven you are a chronic lier or clueless about the moderation here (funny because its likely you). Even my last post wasn’t ‘published’ and it contained no links.

    The misogyny you speak of, is not written by any of the founders of Redpill, any of the reference books, or seminal works.

    Those who are genuinely misogynistic and who post in Repill are in the anger phase and are venting which is healthy in the manosphere. You can feel the hate from some Redpill posters and even in Asktrp they are told to calm down and that they will eventually get to the acceptance phase.

    Being truly misogynistic and hating women is Blackpill or Incel theory and really has nothing to do with the Redpill. One posters thoughts are not representative of the whole.

    Steven, you would be painted as a simpleton for your black and white arguments on various Redpill topics, and are considered by them a black hole waste of time. I have attempted to give you more credibility than that, however If you can’t admit the Redpill principals you attack are far more nuanced and require a more complex understanding than the advice above will be exactly what you are.

    1. My apologies, John. Recently I have been focused on maintaining a website with hundreds of loyal subscribers and thousands of monthly readers. This takes up a large part of my day, which necessarily means that processing hateful comments such as yours ends up falling on the bottom of my list of priorities. So sorry about that!

      Please accept my dearest apologies. From now on, I will be sure to neglect all of the readers who enjoy my site and newsletter so that your comments in particular will appear faster. I hope this puts your snowflake heart at ease.

      1. Yes Steven you should be apologizing, and next time be sincere or don’t make do it at all it, they way you did it makes you sound like a teenage girl who is bragging.

        There are very few forums these days that require post approval before publication. Just admit it, you can’t argue your point of view very well so you resort to censorship instead.

        Good-luck with your ‘hundreds of users’ and ‘thousands of readers’ a quick alexa search shows you get most of your pitiful traffic from redpill search terms, which is pretty funny, as I said when when I started this comment discussion, you have good titles but not much substance to your writing.

        1. Well John, it’s been a pleasure talking to you but I think this comment train has run its course. Which one of us is correct, that’s not my place to say. I’ll leave it up to the readers to decide who’s right.

          It’s not at all necessary on your part, but you are free to hurl any additional insults you may have at me. For me this discussion is over.

  40. You do have a point, Steve, but you seem
    fixated on completing your holy mission of keeping
    people away from TRP, in spite of the fact that
    many of their advices are sound.

    To nitpick, though:
    ” It’s because I’m short and/or Asian.”
    Being short is actually a perfectly valid reason to have
    a non-existing sex life. Short guys have such a hard time getting girls.
    And the girls they get always look for someone taller.

    1. “Holy mission”? First time I’ve heard that before.

      It’s like I’ve already said. There is some good advice, but the misogyny invalidates TRP as a self-improvement tool. Instead, you should check out the books I recommended. There is nothing in TRP that you won’t find in another published book, and you can get it without all the women-hating.

      1. Does the misogyny actually lead people to fail at self-improvement and at increasing their luck in romance? That seems to me to be a separate question from whether it is ethical. One can get rich by founding a company that produces goods of value to others, and one can also get rich by founding a company that defrauds others. Both achieve the aim of acquiring wealth, and it would be incorrect to say that defrauding people doesn’t work at getting you their money, even though it is morally wrong.

        1. I’m glad we both agree that the Red Pill is morally wrong. Your other comment references Kantian ethics, which is interesting because the Red Pill uses misogyny and morally wrong strategies to try and get women into bed. In this way, the Red Pill treats women as a “means to an end” rather than “ends in themselves”.

          So, now you have a choice. You can spit out the red pill. Or, you can continue to follow the red pill and expose yourself as a hypocrite who talks about Kantian ethics while ostensibly failing to follow them.

          Your choice.

  41. I am male. I am not Red Pill. 90% of what they write is hateful and wrong.

    However.

    I HAVE been shit tested. I have failed, and I have passed, and I HAVE seen the difference in her reaction. More than one woman. It’s a real thing. It’s entirely messed up, the formula for passing it isn’t nearly as neat as red pill claims, and I don’t like that it’s a real thing. There must be some instinct lurking just under the surface in women that keeps women vigil to make sure they don’t have a bad deal – and it involves pushing the man a little bit to make sure that he’s got that baboon alpha that would have helped the pair of them survive if they had been born thousands of years earlier.

    Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

  42. Hello Steven,

    Interesting. I see you took your time to learn about the TRP. However, you still don’t understand basic principles and many of your arguments can be used to make to make the counter-point of your argument against TRP.

    « Red Pillers have an amazing capacity to ignore logic, even though they claim that women are the illogical ones. »
    « That the reason for all his dating hardships is because women are little emotional creatures who are unable to use logic. »
    If Red Piller have amazing capacity to ignore logic, yet they struggle with dating because women are unable to use logic, then… who uses logic ? Your two statements are in complete contradiction here.

    « When we fail at something, one of the hardest things we can possibly do is to take an honest look at ourselves and try to identify what we did wrong »
    That’s exactly what the Red Pill is doing. If you fail it’s because YOU didn’t understand what women want, it’s because YOU didn’t hold your frame. Even when TRP blames feminism, in the end, it YOUR job to change your way of life. You see many posts where red pillers are sharing a story and are asking « What did I do wrong ? »

    « The Red Pill offers them the dark promise of being able to get success with women without having to take that hard look at yourself and admit that you may be doing something wrong. »
    Boy, have you even read TRP ? They always say : start lifting, get a good job, meditate, find a mission. If there is one thing that all red pillars understood is that if they are here it’s because they have been doing something wrong this all time.

    « Here’s the thing, though…NO OTHER SELF-HELP LITERATURE REQUIRES YOU TO DO THIS!! » (this as : ignoring the mysogynist parts.)
    Yes, you are right. However, TRP is more than some self-help literature. That’s why it’s called « The Red Pill » and not « How to get women in 10 easy steps by John Doe ». It’s a truth-pill, not a book. If you swallow the Red Pill you get out of The Matrix. If you read a book, you’re back, still safe in your living room with your cat sleeping on your lap. The Red Pill transforms and challenges your perspective of life and intersexual relationships in a way that you can’t go back afterwards.
    To go further with The Matrix comparaison, imagine an unplugged man trying to explain what the real world is like to someone in the Matrix. That someone will say that it is non-sense, that it is just pure fantasy. He will react the same way you do. That’s why many in the TRP don’t talk about it to their friends because they have to experienced it first hand, to be thrown in the TRP, to be overwhelmed by hundreds of articles and stories and witness the ugly reality with his own eyes. It’s a challenge, it’s a hard awakening.

    « Also, how are you supposed to filter out the bad stuff in the first place if you’re inexperienced and you don’t know anything about dating? »
    Not everyone on TRP is an introvert with no dating experience. Some had bad relationships, some are heartbroken, some are/were married men, some come from the PUA community, but they are all there because at some point in their lives, no good advices, no self-help book, no PUA routines, not even the legal system has helped them.
    So you are right when you say you are not going to convince anyone to spit out and it’s not because they ‘ignore logic’, it’s because they have been here. They read « your » self-help book, they listen to good advices, and it didn’t do shit for them in the long term.

    « The volunteers gave the wrong answers because the group’s opinion changed their perception of reality! »
    Yes, there is a group effect in TRP. It’s the same for every group. You are probably influenced by your own group. No-win situation.

    « To me, The Red Pill is complete and utter nonsense » Yet higher in the article you say «  I will admit The Red Pill does have some good gems of advice. Abundance mentality. Not putting women on a pedestal. Working out and being healthy. All good pieces of advice to follow. »
    It’s one or the other.

    You’re still making good points in your article. Yes, there is some misogyny (especially in the terminology).
    Don’t ever forget that The Red Pill is hard place. It’s a manly place too, with a lot of ego and need for attention. There is some bullshits posts and theory hidden between golden content.
    In the end, I prefer to look for some ugly truths in a hard place than having platitudes handed me on a plate.

    1. Hey there, Ozu. Interesting discussion. Here’s what I have to say.

      « Red Pillers have an amazing capacity to ignore logic, even though they claim that women are the illogical ones. »

      « That the reason for all his dating hardships is because women are little emotional creatures who are unable to use logic. »

      If Red Piller have amazing capacity to ignore logic, yet they struggle with dating because women are unable to use logic, then… who uses logic ? Your two statements are in complete contradiction here.

      Women are the ones using logic. That second quote is taken out of context. I’m not saying that women don’t use logic. I’m saying that TRP perceives women as not using logic.

      « When we fail at something, one of the hardest things we can possibly do is to take an honest look at ourselves and try to identify what we did wrong »

      That’s exactly what the Red Pill is doing. If you fail it’s because YOU didn’t understand what women want, it’s because YOU didn’t hold your frame. Even when TRP blames feminism, in the end, it YOUR job to change your way of life. You see many posts where red pillers are sharing a story and are asking « What did I do wrong ? »

      Sure. The issue with TRP is that many of the highest upvoted responses in these posts end up blaming external factors in misogynic ways. “AWALT”, “hypergamy”, or even “women are children”. This does more harm than good.

      « The Red Pill offers them the dark promise of being able to get success with women without having to take that hard look at yourself and admit that you may be doing something wrong. »

      Boy, have you even read TRP ? They always say : start lifting, get a good job, meditate, find a mission. If there is one thing that all red pillars understood is that if they are here it’s because they have been doing something wrong this all time.

      That’s common sense advice. Everyone knows you should lift, take care of your health, and have a good job. This is just token “good advice” for TRP to hide behind so that it can claim that it improves the lives of men. Beyond that TRP has little to offer except vast amounts of women-hating.

      « Here’s the thing, though…NO OTHER SELF-HELP LITERATURE REQUIRES YOU TO DO THIS!! » (this as : ignoring the mysogynist parts.)

      Yes, you are right. However, TRP is more than some self-help literature. That’s why it’s called « The Red Pill » and not « How to get women in 10 easy steps by John Doe ». It’s a truth-pill, not a book. If you swallow the Red Pill you get out of The Matrix. If you read a book, you’re back, still safe in your living room with your cat sleeping on your lap. The Red Pill transforms and challenges your perspective of life and intersexual relationships in a way that you can’t go back afterwards.

      To go further with The Matrix comparaison, imagine an unplugged man trying to explain what the real world is like to someone in the Matrix. That someone will say that it is non-sense, that it is just pure fantasy. He will react the same way you do. That’s why many in the TRP don’t talk about it to their friends because they have to experienced it first hand, to be thrown in the TRP, to be overwhelmed by hundreds of articles and stories and witness the ugly reality with his own eyes. It’s a challenge, it’s a hard awakening.

      TRP is not a “truth-pill”. It is a message board on a website. You can read TRP in your living room with a cat sleeping on your lap the same way you can read a book. The difference between the two is that a book typically needs to be scrutinized and vetted before a publisher puts it into circulation, whereas TRP outright bans you if you dare question anything they have to say.

      « Also, how are you supposed to filter out the bad stuff in the first place if you’re inexperienced and you don’t know anything about dating? »

      Not everyone on TRP is an introvert with no dating experience. Some had bad relationships, some are heartbroken, some are/were married men, some come from the PUA community, but they are all there because at some point in their lives, no good advices, no self-help book, no PUA routines, not even the legal system has helped them.

      So you are right when you say you are not going to convince anyone to spit out and it’s not because they ‘ignore logic’, it’s because they have been here. They read « your » self-help book, they listen to good advices, and it didn’t do shit for them in the long term.

      It’s true that not everyone on TRP is an introvert with no dating experience, but that wasn’t the point I was trying to make. I was specifically arguing that it’s impractical for one to ignore the bad advice in TRP and only pick out the good advice.

      For an in-depth example of what happens when a well-meaning gentleman has trouble picking out good advice from bad advice, I recommend David Wong’s article about sexual consent on Cracked

      http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-men-are-trained-to-think-sexual-assault-no-big-deal/

      Also, I do not have a book. No idea where you’re getting that from.

      « The volunteers gave the wrong answers because the group’s opinion changed their perception of reality! »

      Yes, there is a group effect in TRP. It’s the same for every group. You are probably influenced by your own group. No-win situation.

      Yes, this does happen in every group. The difference is that TRP actively ENCOURAGES this to happen within its own group by banning any dissenting opinions.

      « To me, The Red Pill is complete and utter nonsense » Yet higher in the article you say «  I will admit The Red Pill does have some good gems of advice. Abundance mentality. Not putting women on a pedestal. Working out and being healthy. All good pieces of advice to follow. »

      It’s one or the other.

      Welp, you got me on a technicality. I’d say TRP is about 99% nonsense, which is not a far cry from “complete and utter nonsense”. There are some good points, but they are buried under mountains of misogyny. There are no good pieces of advice that you’ll find in TRP that aren’t in a published book like the ones I suggested in the article. The difference is that you don’t have to sift through all the women-hating that runs rampant on TRP.

      It’s a pleasure discussing this with you, Ozu. I’ve said this several times throughout my other comments, but it’s not my place to say who’s correct. I leave that up to the readers.

  43. Where are your womens Steven?

    You have a face of beta provider cuckold who gets swapped left.

    You will never face the facts you are justed as fucked as alot of other men who share the same phenotype of face.

  44. Reading this article, I could only feel sorry for the author. He has not yet become aware of women’s true nature. Women’s nature doesn’t make them bad human beings but not being aware of women’s nature will allow them to do bad things to you. Go MGTOW; don’t feed the feminist machine.

      1. Hi Steven,

        There is also one thing that stumped me when browsing through the red pill community. I read that when after woman has 3-5 sexual partners that it changes her brain, which (supposedly) according to scientific studies makes it very difficult for her to remain loyal, or a viable mate for marriage.

        “once a woman has been sexually with 3-5 men (depending on the woman), her brain neurology is re-wired synapsis in the neuronetwork. No long-term pair bonding is possible for a female after oxytocin depletion increasingly with each male whose DNA stays inside her DNA strands forever. Pair bonding for females no longer works, hence no point in getting into a ltr, or marraige with them. Do you know if this is true? Would love to know your thoughts. Thanks.

        1. Uh huh… right.

          Looks like slut-shaming with cherry-picked “science” to me.

          So trp claims that “women are broken once they go past 3-5 mates” and promotes “spinning plates” at the same time. After that they vent about how there’s no good women out there. Does that not sound contradictory and totally idiotic to you?

        2. Provide a citation for this assertion, Ben, from a reputable, peer reviewed paper or a comment by a neuroscientist. Don’t, and as someone who worked on the editorial staff for the American Institute of Physics, And your quote does not stand on the merits.

  45. Wow, some of you are really full of yourselves aren’t you? Seriously – wow. Some of you are disrespectful human beings and obviously breastfed until you were 20. Honestly I feel really bad for you, I bet you’ve let many great opportunities pass you by……
    I hope this article somehow imbedds itself into your self conscious and you will come out of this an even better MAN because you’re all behaving like a bunch of adolescent teenage girls at slumber party when of of then gets dumped by a guy who decided he needed to kiss another girl…..
    And what men need to know – even if there were such things as alphas and betas- that by using the red pill you are actually a fake alpha which in turn makes you the actual BETA! Ouch, that probably stings a little?
    You guys ummmmm – ass hats – are going to end up turning it around so that the existing betas are, with time and growth of your ideology, going to turn them into the actual “ALPHAS”….ironic isn’t it?? Another punch in the gut! Sorry…..
    But then again you will most likely see this, show it to your cat or two friends and make a joke, but that’s okay, I am not in need of your approval. Hoping this angers you enough too hold into it.

  46. Steven well done my friend. It’s a relief to know it wasn’t just me thinking these things.

    Another group of “red pillers” you’d have fun with is a group MGTOW “men going there own way” They teach men not to marry and not to co-habituate with women. To support the hate of women— they present a very tough argument with facts i.e the divorce failure rate, (90% within 10 years, and women initiate up to 80% of all divorces, while taking half a mans assets, child custody, even if it’s her fault. “She has a loaded gun and can use it whenever she wishes”. “3rd wave feminism” is mainly to blame. MGTOW YouTube videos/comment sections of these videos are disturbing to say the least. It’s sad. These men are so lost and can’t see it. They even brag that they are teaching this to young kids they know. These guys don’t just hate women either. They attack men, and fathers too.

    The base argument: is a majority of MODERN women have changed and become “hypergamous”. Do you personally believe there may be some truth to this? Is it possible this generation of women has changed drastically?

    Sadly, a friend of mine literally broke off his engagement after watching these videos. It’s how I learned of Red Pill/MGTOW. I tried to encourage him. Spoke to him about my wife and I. (My wife and I have been married over 15 years) He says “you and your wife are special.. Women aren’t like this anymore” Who would ever take those odds in Vegas.

    Lastly, as I was watching these videos to see what all this fuss was about I came across “red pill rage”. Supposedly once men learn of a females “true” nature they are angered/saddened being that it’s not what their parents taught them. The angles they use are very persuasive, just enough to be dangerous. It’s giving men a negative connotation toward women, teaching them that women don’t want a good hearted man, who treats them with respect, love, etc. they want a man who will dominate them, etc. this is not the message men need. Especially, young men. I have a son and daughters. If this information was innocent, why would red pull rage even be a “thing” with countless videos discussing it. As I myself visit these dark corners I shake my head, and wonder what the hell have we’ve become. Cold and soulless. This is not the love and meaningful connection I was taught. The very things that have kept my own wife and I together strong for all these years

  47. Well, I tried not to, but I’ll play the game. 😉

    Yes, a lot of the principals exposed by TRP do work to get women into bed. I’ve used them myself and went from a near sexless teen to very sexually successful in my 20’s. And slept with some girls way out of my league (looks wise) when I had very little to offer (resources) beyond my dread game and aloof nature. So, it’s unquestionable to me that it does work.

    But, equating it to some sort of abuse or trickery is where I disagree. It’s behaving in a way that women find attractive. If they didn’t find it attractive, it would not work. Same thing as women wearing high heels or makeup to appear as if they’ve just had sex (which, in case you didn’t know, is a lot of what the painting of faces has nearly always been intended to replicate). If it didn’t work to sexually entice men, well, women would not do it. Nobody likes to walk around in uncomfortable shoes (I’m assuming). Very few guys like to pull out lines and drop dread game (I know I didn’t). But it worked because, in some way, it was mimicking social cues that women find attractive.

    Women do not generally find weak men attractive. The essence of TRP is “don’t be weak” and then a bunch of different ways you can show strength and power in ways that women generally respond well to and are legal. There is nothing wrong with women liking men who are self-assured and powerful, anymore than there is anything wrong with men liking women who appear to have a sex flush. And men using lines and techniques to appear self-assured and powerful is no less honest than a woman painting her face to appear sex flushed. If makeup worked, I can promise you, men would be wearing that instead!

    1. You’re welcome to play the game. I do find it interesting that you’ve decided to go by the pseudonym “RippedOne”. Personally, I use my real name online because I’m not insecure enough where I need to look tough in front of random internet strangers. But hey…that’s just me.

      It’s also interesting that you’ve written three paragraphs mostly about stuff I never mentioned. My article never said anything about makeup, or high heels, or sex flush, or even about women liking confident and self-assured men. I can only assume this is some sort of Gish Gallop logical fallacy on your part.

      As I’ve already written, 1) TRP is abuse and 2) it does not truly work. Dread game causes emotional and psychological pain to a woman because it keeps her on a constant “fight-or-flight” rollercoaster. Nobody enjoys that. You might be able to get a woman to stay with you in the short term like you’ve had, but it never leads to a secure trusting relationship like I have.

  48. Has it occurred to anyone that “the Red Pill” isn’t just one thing or one community, but many? Including people of all races and also neo-nazis (like Heartiste) just as an example? So it can be simultaneously true that it is misogynistic and also about actually viewing and treating women as people (with all of the same kinds of desires and flaws as men)? When I read red pill stuff, one of the things that I have taken away is that there is disagreement among folks writing under that label. It isn’t big, loud, disagreement, but it is subtle and it is there.

  49. Hi guys, Any thoughts on the red pill claim that women who have had 2-5 sexual partners are now unable to “pair bond”, properly?

    The claim is that she will get bored, cheat, ruin the relationship, and leave the man.. and some have said that only dread game, may help to “put her back in line” I’ve seen this claim in TRP and MGTOW forum’s. Something about oxytocin. If this was factual (and with those numbers being typical of the avg women) how would anyone ever stay married? Were do you guys come up with this stuff? lol

    This is the boldest claim I’ve ever seen this group make and I was curious if any of the red pillers here agreed with this of has any actual peer reviewed research behind this? Thanks

    1. Oh, it amazes me how people can speak with such misplaced authority on a subject without even having read a single book about it. The article you linked didn’t address his question at all. He asked about research that shows women cannot “pair bond” after 2-5 partners and your article said nothing about that.

      Also, it’s an oversimplification to say that “women lose interest in their men anyway over the years”. In the book Come as you are by Emily Nagoski, she writes that “Some monogamous couples create a context that sustains and enlivens desire, and some couples…don’t. It’s not that monogamy is inherently bad for desire, it’s the way people do monogamy that can kill desire.”

      In other words, life gets in the way if you let it. Housework happens. Your career happens. Stress happens. Sickness happens. Accidents happen. For women, sexual desire often takes a backseat to all the pressures of life (whereas for men, it’s easy to just “get it up” on a moment’s notice). If you can’t work as a team to overcome all the crap that life throws at you then sexual desire becomes a casualty. That’s why a lot of men mistakenly think that women’s desire just naturally goes down as time goes on.

  50. His question was connected to the article I posted Imo since most women, at least in the west, have had way more than 2-5 partners on average. Therefore the article shows that women get easily bored with their husbands and boyfriends after 3-5 years which makes pair bonding even more difficult in the long run.

    “Some monogamous couples create a context that sustains and enlivens desire, and some couples…don’t. ”

    That is oversimplification as well. How about humans like diversity? Different sexual partners and experiences? Women are no different than men, they like to have sex with many men, just like men like to have sex with many women. I actually appreciate women going for what they desire. We need to go away from the men are providers meme.

    “In other words, life gets in the way if you let it. Housework happens. Your career happens. Stress happens. Sickness happens. Accidents happen. For women, sexual desire often takes a backseat to all the pressures of life (whereas for men, it’s easy to just “get it up” on a moment’s notice).”

    So? 90% of the population have to deal with that, men and women. The divorce rate is high enough already and there are less marriages happening because now women can finally choose to be with the men they want, not the men they need (which I support btw). Therefore because of dating apps and social media many women will choose to have lots of casual sex as much as they desire and cheating, ghosting and leaving come along with it.

    1. “His question was connected to the article I posted Imo since most women, at least in the west, have had way more than 2-5 partners on average. Therefore the article shows that women get easily bored with their husbands and boyfriends after 3-5 years which makes pair bonding even more difficult in the long run.”

      The article never mentioned that, so for you to come to that conclusion is merely conjecture on your part. The original poster specifically asked for peer-reviewed research supporting the idea that women cannot “pair-bond” as a direct result of having 2-5 partners, which your comment lacked in its entirety. I have provided peer-reviewed research in support of my argument. If you have peer-reviewed research in support of your perspective, please feel free to present that. Anything else will be considered off-topic to this discussion. Thank you!

  51. Well Jargon said “The claim is that she will get bored, cheat, ruin the relationship, and leave the man.” So I thought about this article that I had read once because it suggested women get bored after 3-5 years in a relationship anyway. I came to the conclusion that women, who have had various sexual partners in their past, therefore also don’t pair bond that easily in the long run.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/more-sexual-partners-unhappy-marriage_n_5698440

    http://nationalmarriageproject.org/

    They claim this finding is especially true for women, writing in the report, “We further found that the more sexual partners a woman had had before marriage, the less happy she reported her marriage to be.”

    https://ifstudies.org/blog/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability/

    “The highest divorce rates shown in Figure 1, 33 percent, belong to women who had ten or more premarital sex partners. This is the result most readers of this brief probably expected: a lot of partners means a lot of baggage, which makes a stable marriage less tenable.”

    1. Cool. That’s actually an interesting study! Now I see where you are coming from and your perspective on sex and relationships. Is it true? Perhaps. To me, it still seems illogical that women cannot have happy relationships if they have sexual partners before marriage. I’m inclined to agree with the critics of that study from the first link you posted.

      “Dr. Jim McNulty, a social psychology professor from Florida State University who has published a plethora of research on the topic, wrote in an email. ‘For example, people who tend to avoid commitment in general may have more sexual partners and be less happy when they settle down. It’s not the fact that they have more sexual partners that leads them to be less happy, it’s the fact that they don’t really like commitment. I would be very surprised if having multiple sexual partners before marriage, independent of any other factor, has a direct causal influence.'”

      “‘We cannot make any conclusions about cause-and-effect,’ says Justin Lehmiller, PhD, sex educator and researcher at Purdue University, adding, ‘Could it be that multiple premarital partners impacts marital happiness? Maybe. But it could also be that people who have more partners have different personalities or different attitudes toward marriage or relationships.'”

      P.S. spamming the comments box does not make your comments appear faster

  52. I came across the red pill the hard way. I’m a good looking guy. Was brought up by a single mom and taught to respect women. I met a wonderful girl when I was 25 (back when I was a a bartender and had social proof). She was 21. I did everything right intuitively. I led, she followed happily. She adored me. And I her. I never strayed or cheated. I quit tending bar and started a business. She was my inspiration (unknowingly). The years went by. She graduated. Got her shit together. Became a nurse. Which I helped her do. I always supported her the way she always supported me. Then she started becoming more and more difficult with time. Then one day, on my 31st birthday actually, poof. She left. I did everything I could to try and fix the situation. Wrote her a letter. Spoke to her parents (because she blocked me on her phone, even though I wasn’t even hounding her) Etc. We were together 6 years. She wanted to marry me but I was a bit hesitant because of her behavior. It has only been… 4 months since we split. When I talk to her now, she treats me as if I was a piece of trash. Like I was never anything to her. Like I didn’t even matter. When I read rollo tomassi’S work, everything made sense. She was happy as long as I maintained frame, as long as she felt like she needed me. And I passed all her shit tests. As soon as I failed a few, she didn’t need me anymore, then left, and I went into HER frame to try and fix things… I am now completely insignificant to her. And once again, this is a GOOD human being we’re talking about. She is a good woman. But she IS a woman. She can’t help it. It’s amazing how a 110lb girl who I took care of, protected, guided, and gave flowers to the same day every month for 6 years, now sees a 210lb grown man as an insignificant insect. She’s completely over it while I’m stuck picking up the pieces of my own life. Do not bash the red pill. I don’t like it anymore than you do, but it is truth. She has zero remorse. And again, she is NOT a bad person. There are much worse. I’ve had worse before her. Men are indeed the romantic gender. Men love idealistically, women love opportunistically. I wish I knew then what I know now. It’s a shame. She was one in a million. I’ll always love her, I’ll always miss her. Meanwhile, She forgot all about me already.

    1. Cool story bro. Fakespot has determined most of the reviews of Rollo Tomassi’s work to be dishonest, so you’ll forgive me if I read your post with a healthy dose of skepticism.

      Sincerely,
      Someone who’s been in happy relationships and who has helped others find happy relationships WITHOUT using the red pill

    2. @Al

      Do you think she is still single? I have heard and even actually experienced this story many times: when a woman suddenly breaks things off and even blocks you then chances are that she has a new guy already! It’s brutal but I think that is what happened to you. As for Rollo Tomassi, I think he copes too much about frame/alpha. It doesn’t matter how alpha you act, if a woman meets someone she likes better, he do and say as he pleases, she is attracted to him, period.

      @Steven Zawilla Who is Fakespot? And what did he expose? Can you share a link?

  53. There are 2 kinds of red pilled people.
    The first kind are the people that are still in their angry phase of seeing the truth and they are lashing out in all direction because the red pill is very hard to swallow. Some of them go even deeper down the rabbit hole and go straight for the black pill.
    The second kind are the people that have accepted the red pill and now understand it all. These people aren’t crying and whining about all of it. We just don’t care anymore about them feels.
    We want true equality.

    Let me give you a nice little red pill to close of my statement.
    Women on tinder complain either about men only having sex with them and then getting ghosted or they are complaining that so many men are crying and whining on it because these men are not getting attention. So basically the incels you are talking about.
    But the thing is, for the last couple of decades women have been asking for men to be more emotional, more caring, etc etc. Now that men ARE more caring and more emotional… women start complaining these men are crying and whining. These are extreme double standards. How do you argue with this? It is either one or the other… you can’t have both.

    Anyway, it doesn’t matter how many red pills i talk about … because the thing is… you only get red pilled by experience. So no matter what I say or do… I will not change your mind unless you actually hit that hard wall. The only thing I hope, is that this hit doesn’t hurt too much because I don’t want people to suffer too much.

  54. Dumb entitled woman. Life is not the same when you aren’t playing on recruit difficulty because you fucking won the 50% chance at birth.

  55. I am a Red Pill guy. I am definately not going to insult you or criticise you. Much of what you wrote is right when referring to Reddit. But the majority of thos guys are not Red Pill guys. They are angry betas that do not like the taste of the Red Pill. It is not a forum I am a member of.

    The Red Pill for me has been very positive. I failed with women for years. I thought I was a sad excuse of a man. I suffer from depression and was suicidal at one point in my life. But I turned things around and started working on being a better man but I still felt something was not right with the world.

    I then read The Rational Male and it then all clicked into place. However I am a man who follows Stoic philosophy and I avoid belief systems. So I took what fitted into my own reasoning, from Rollo Tomassi, for being a virtuous man.

    I then read a lot more. To be a better man everyday and also started to learn about and understand women.

    A book I read recently was ‘The Female Brain’ by Dr Louann Brizendine, who is a clinical psychiatrist. She spent 30 years of psychologogical, neuorological and biological research on this book. What is interesting about this book is her target audience is women and she does say that some of it maybe uncomfortable reading for some women. The reason for this is because she maps out the behaviour and nature of women, through biology and evolution, that confirms Hypergamy and Solipisism (she does not use these words) wrote out by Rollo Tomassi in The Rational Male. It was certainly a surprise to me.

    Dr Brizendine even points out that today’s narrative of women liking sex just as much as men because now the patriarch has stopped repressing their sexuality is nonsense. This is because from a biological standpoint it is an incorrect narrative.

    So you see The Red Pill is not all bad. I for one am a much better, virtuous and corageous man than I ever was. I understand women but I don’t allow myself to be manipulated. And as a result I am a lot more attractive prospect for a woman to date. I now know how to be a positive masculine man.

  56. I’m not a “Redpiller” by definition, but I have read all the material and benefited in some ways from the things you praised such as “work out, stand up straight, abundance mentality and don’t pedestal the ladies.” I can see your side in that not AWALT. Unfortunately, enough of us have had bad experiences similar to those in TRP that it gets discussed. I will concede that you make an excellent point in that if you associate with low-quality women (people), expect low-quality experiences. It does become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    For me, TRP took me from a guy who would probably be described by his friends as “Chad” per TRP standards, and helped me understand why women were attracted to me and what things I could improve upon to make me more attractive to quality women and also a better quality man for those women (and for myself/my kids).
    I understand your anger. It reminds me of the anger phase that most who buy into the TRP philosophy go through, and some never leave it. Those of us who can think for ourselves and sift through the garbage and take out the few gems of useful perspective probably are better for having found TRP. Others, not so much.
    My only feedback would be to lighten up on the use of “misogyny”. That word is so over-used that is has gone the way of “racist” and no longer holds any power but simply undermines the credibility of the writer with those of who are more moderate/middle of the road in the political spectrum. You are a skilled enough writer to get the same point across without using an overused term that has lost its value. Otherwise, I think your article was decent and you are probably right in that TRP has probably ruined many a man. On the flip side, it has made some of us better and quality women probably didn’t want the ones that were subject to ruin anyway.
    For the record….NAWALT, and NAMALT (men) but both sides should have their eyes open for shady behaviors to minimize risk.
    Also…..what are your thoughts on MGTOW? How about the guys who don’t see the point in making dating/women a priority but still want to focus on being the best version of themselves possible? Less subjugation of women because the focus is on ignoring women more than conquering them, but the advice on self improvement is very similar. Just my thoughts and I enjoyed your article, even thought we disagree on some minor things.

  57. There are two major flaws in your post here.

    1. You say the Alpha and Beta construct is non existent, but a pillar of RP ideology. However, many studies by dating sites with their own data have shown that women only find 20% of men to be worthy of dating. These 20% of men women see as worthy of dating could accurately be described as the “Alpha males”.

    2. You say that after men lose the women due to RP tactics they will be sad and come back to the RP community only to be told to be more “Alpha”, but this couldn’t be further from the truth. The strange thing is that you seem to know this based on what you’ve written in other parts of your post.

    The goal of RP ideology is to get what you want from women IE “plates”. The reason that RP ideology teaches you to keep multiple plates spinning is because the ideas taught are not designed to inspire a life long commitment. The goal of RP teaching as they relate to inter-gender relations are to get men what they want from women and then discard of them once they’ve got it. Under no circumstances are they expecting to keep a plate spinning for the rest of their life.

    1. Thanks for your comment, Greg. Peer-reviewed studies from reputable scientific sources are, quite frankly, boring to talk about. Your purely anecdotal experiences described in your comment are an amusing breath of fresh air from the scientific studies that I referenced in my meticulously researched 3,000+ word article.

      However, most of my readers are interested in genuine, authentic relationships. My readers see women not as “plates” such as you do but as human beings who are deserving of the same respect that all peoples are owed. They would never attempt to get “what they want from women and then discard of them once they’ve got it.” In that way, The Red Pill is completely and utterly useless to my audience.

      Thanks again for your comment. Feel free to leave another comment anytime, especially if it includes as many references to scientifically-backed peer-reviewed research as your original comment does (that is, none at all.) Have a nice day.

  58. I’ve read a lot about the red pill philosophy and watched quite a lot of videos about it over the past couple years. I wanted to understand women and dating more since my divorce. I’ve learned a few things but I think it’s important to take it all with a grain of salt, especially since my goal is to understand women (and myself) in order to have healthier relationships. I’m an ethical guy and I would never use women for sex. I just want to be more aware of who I should stay away from and how I can be the best version of myself. I just wanted to offer the perspective of a 45-year-old guy who has been around the block and had some time to observe people.

    My gut reaction to some of the red pill gurus is that they tend to be egotistical and rigid. Despite their belief that they have women and life, in general, all figured out, I’d be willing to bet that they are still angry and frustrated. I listen to some of what they have to say and they make some good points, but I usually end up wanting to tell them to get over themselves. A lot of these guys criticize women for posting selfies on social media but they, themselves, post shirtless, pumped-up photos of themselves and talk about how hard they work on their bodies.

    Another thing that bothers me about them is that they make human attraction sound so scientific and predictable. In doing so, they suck all the fun out of it. All this talk of our “sexual marketplace value” is pretty inaccurate in the real world. It’s another made-up concept that doesn’t necessarily hold water if you take the time to observe human interaction. For example, I know some overweight, middle-aged guys who are usually broke, but they are charismatic as hell. Women LOVE them. They are good guys, but if you looked at their sexual marketplace value, they’d be way down the list. The bottom line is that if you’re an overbearing, vain blowhard, a lot of women are going to get sick of your BS. In the end, your impressive finances and your abs won’t get you very far and you may end up attracting the sort of shallow gold diggers you wanted to avoid. The thing these red pill sages are missing is that the real “alpha men” are the ones who can interact with others confidently, regardless of other factors. A nice smile, sense of humor, and the natural ability to put people at ease and make them want to talk to you go a long way.

    You mentioned that the red pillers refer to women as “plates,” but the fact that a lot of them are so casual about assigning numbers to them on a scale of 1-10 seems more shallow to me. Okay, so they are “spinning plates” when they date multiple women at one time, but they get downright douchey when they say things like, “I only date sevens and up.” Or “My current girlfriend is a solid nine but I’ve had tens before.” I get it and I want to be physically attracted to the women I date, but a subjective rating system used to describe someone’s physical attractiveness sounds shallow and complicated. If you find a woman attractive and you enjoy spending time with her, why is there even a need to rate her attractiveness? Even if guys talk like that amongst themselves, it still makes them sound shallow to talk that way when they are recording videos for the whole world to see on Youtube.

    As far as divorce goes, the red pill community is correct when they say that a lot of men get the short end of the stick. The courts can be very harsh, especially considering that a lot of guys weren’t the ones to initiate their divorces. Because of this, I completely understand why a lot of guys are wary about marrying for a second time.

  59. I read the article and most of the comments, this has been a very entertaining to debate to watch, the supporters of the trp vs non supporters like you.

    One of the wisest things I’ve ever heard “coach red pill” from YouTube say is this. To find out your true opinion on something, you must make a forceful counter argument against your current set of beliefs, in this, you will understand the truths and falsehoods in both sides of the argument and derive your new sharpened opinion.

    I thoroughly know how to be a nice guy, I’ve been taught by my mother, the schools, and this Western society in general. All of the tenants of mainstream society and ideas are for the most part, ingrained in me. The idea of what a moral human being should do is something I am very familiar.

    But the thing is, there is a difference between what is moral and what is practical in real life, and the line for what is moral is subjective just like what is practical goes on a case by case with different girls and in life in general.

    With that being said, I’ll refer back to what coach red pill said about allowing yourself to have contradictory opinions in your head and using those opinions hash it out, one against the other, to sharpen my true stance on something.

    The red pill provides the counter argument to all of mainstream stuff about life I’ve been taught to believe my whole life. With the red pill, I test against the mainstream practices I’ve been taught, to see which one prevails.

    Sure the red pill has incels that are hopeless and thus call women bitches and dogs, but just as the Muslim religion has radical terrorist, does that mean none of the tenants of both ideologies should be followed and that ideology should be thrown out as a whole? Of course not. You don’t really know what you believe until you in some form or fashion, test out the contrary opinion. Crazy thought. Maybe this is why the saying “common sense is not so common after all” exist. Things are open to interpretation.

    All in all, I am grateful for the red pill, I found the red pill at a time of weakness, just like religions do, and have since sculpted what I believe of it and mainstream rules into something I consider a true intuition. This is a forever on going process though.

    You remind me of one of my best friends. Very logical and evidence based. The problem with that is that since you need such an overwhelming amount of evidence to be convinced that something is true, you can never really fully develop yourself. The red pill talks about things that will never be proven by science, doesn’t make all of the things that can’t be proven untrue. Why such a high standard for what is considered truth? This isn’t the court room, we aren’t publicly sending people to jail for life here, we are just having an on going debate what is truly human nature.

    There are moments where I read pill content and think “holy fuck that is exactly what happened to me 100%”. Maybe one of those moments will come. And for the some of the stuff I don’t have anedoctal experience for, it kinda floats in my mind, so when it does happen I am not surprised. You could call this confirmation bias, but even when it happens, i try not to sway to heavily to my new discovery.

    In the end, I would rather have all the opinions about human nature than just the side I’ve been fed my whole life. That way I can go about making decisions in my life without totally naive. I would say the red pill has changed my life for the better and I think it would change yours too if you were to look at its content through an objective lense.

  60. Good article.
    I do believe in shit tests though..
    However, these guys think into it way too much and think everything’s a test.
    In my experience shit tests are way far in between and they’re pretty obvious. Anyways..
    Idk man, I just be nice to them, say nice things, act interested…etc and it works like 90% of the time. Can’t win them all. You shouldn’t want to. What’s the fun in that?

    Current GF now of 6 months is literally the best thing that has ever happened to me. She treats me well, fucks whenever, has her own life, pursues me. I treat her well, fuck whenever, have my own life outside of her and still pursue as well.
    Very beautiful girl. Lovely person.
    Never given me problems, communicates with me and we are very intimate. But if she’s being a fuckin bitch for some stupid reason she’s getting put back in her place. Which is beside me. Not above.

    Being decent guy really works if you are genuine.
    And if trp guys are mad because being a decent guy didn’t work, then you were never genuine to begin with.
    Women know.

    Fuck trp

  61. Poll a group of a hundred random men you see walking into a Walmart or Tiffany’s for that matter–or even a thousand–and you’ll be lucky to find one or two who even know what the acronym stands for.

    I fly for a major U.S airline and it’s rare in a company that has more than 12,000 pilots that you fly with the same guy twice. During my 20-year career I’ve been in the cockpit with at least 1,500 and possibly 2,000 other pilots. I’m guessing about 25% were divorced, 50% married, and 25% single.

    What’s this have to do with the Red Pill. I could count on one hand the number of divorced guys–and some had real horror stories to tell–who believed their crash-and-burn marriages, or emotionally brutal breakups opened their eyes about the true nature of women. Even among the once divorced pilots, my crude guess is that 70% remarried.

    A few of the single guys suggested they weren’t “cut out” for marriage and enjoyed the single life. Some preferred the sexual “freedom” of being single. NOT one spoke of women using words remotely similar to that of the radicalized MGTOWS who camp out on youtube. None found them, “money-grubbing dogs” incapable of love and loyalty, morally depraved and essentially the equivalent of lepers.

    When you sort it out, the MGTOWS who see the world this way are second cousins to racists. The object of their fear and loathing is not a Muslim, black American, hispanics,
    or Jews. They speak of ALL women, not merely a few, but ALL women as vile creatures to be avoided.

    At the end of the day their contempt for women suggests they have deeply ingrained psychological issues–most likely, gynophobia.

    As a former Air Force fighter pilot, I learned the hard way that the feeling of rage is preferable to the feeling of panic. Radicalized MGTOWS, unable to acknowledge that fear lies at the bottom of their sick contempt of women, have transmuted it into fear.

    The only men who need to fear women are those who refuse or who are incapable of taking responsibility for their lives. I have never heard one, not ONE, accept responsibility for a failed marriage or relationship.

    It is this inability to accept one’s role in the way their lives play out that will eventually
    lead to MGTOWS being counted among fringe cults similar to those who believe in a flat earth, alien abductions, and that shapeshifting reptiles have infiltrated the highest
    levels of government.

  62. “It “works” in that you might be able to get a woman to stay with you in the short term. ”

    Then what is your point man? Most guys just want to get laid. After you did it is up to you if you want to have something long term with a girl or find someone else. Getting laid effectively is skill what 95% of men lack.

    As about LTR – RedPill advocate unbalances relationships in which you as a man take higher position. Instead of equal relationships it teaches you to create relationships in which your personal benefit maximised. It make perfect sense from logical standpoint. All your post is about emotions, there is no actual rational argument here.

    1. If you want to know what my point is…go read the rest of the article. I welcome constructive discussion, but low-effort comments like yours get low-effort replies from me.

      It’s funny you say that my post is all “about emotions” when I’ve backed up my claims with scientific studies. Calling other people “emotional” is just what you Red-Pilled do when you don’t actually have a valid argument, isn’t it??

  63. This article was truly a breath of fresh air. I have to say, I’ve read through all of the comments as well as your replies and I am impressed by your level headedness, I would have become quite frustrated at the redundancy of the same old arguments presented to you.
    Some of them recognizing there is misogyny but hand waving it as if it were a non-issue rather than a serious problem (because it is okay to call women “bitches,” “plates,” and “children,” if along with that you say “And you should work out!”), some trying to feign ignorance to it, some actually supporting the strange notion that women are somehow subhuman.

    Just as the feminazis who make blanket statements about all men being xyz make feminists look bad, such TRP members make all men look like conniving villains, and frankly I was feeling quite mentally and emotionally drained after delving deep into that hate-filled sub reddit, seeing hundreds upon hundreds of upvotes on posts like “Women cannot have logical conversations” “Treat women like children.” “Women are not capable of love” (wtf?). Thankfully, after stumbling upon your article I am reminded that such ideologies are NOT mainstream, and are more a result of a small cult of people circlejerking off to their misery and mindfucking themselves deeper and deeper into the little niche they have made, where they are free to be misogynists under the facade of male empowerment. (Reminds me of the…er…interesting, manifesto of one Elliot Rodgers.) There are so many men out there who know kindness and compassion is what is needed in a relationship, not mind games and cold shoulders. Such men (and women!) are what the world needs. Hell, I am all for male empowerment, men are awesome, women are awesome, humans are awesome! We should all love ourselves and be proud of ourselves. But TRP is just a dark, dark place overall.

    I think the most ridiculous thing about all of this is that they somehow manage to ignore/downplay all the disgusting things written about women on that site. Imagine a subreddit like this but targeted at some minority group saying such things as “black people are subhuman” “treat black people like children” “black people cannot have logical conversations,” Of course, that sounds batshit insane, and these same TRP users would immediately say, of course not! Black people are human, and that is racism! So, I suppose women are not? If this is not misogyny, pray, WHAT IS?

    As much as it is so hurtful to see them talk about women as subhuman creatures, and though they may see me as the enemy, I also geniunely wish that all of them are able to find true love without having to resort to mind games, “shit tests,” and basically trying to drive their SO insane with emotional abuse. Because more than it pains me to see the misogynistic conversations that take place on that subreddit, or the shameful circlejerk and censorship of other opinions, it truly hurts me to think of the women who will be subject to that emotional neglect that TRP promotes. I shudder at the thought of a potential partner being a TRP member or falling into that trap. I would hope that if there were problems (and my SO were sane) he would come and talk to me about it rather than resort to an online cult of internet strangers who seem to know me and my behavior better than even myself! And I would do the same. I don’t believe in this foolishness, perhaps I am just too old to play these strange mind games the young generation likes to play in place of having loving, human relationships.

    I don’t know when love turned into such a warped game, it’s quite tiresome to think about this things. Kudos to you for reviving my faith in humanity at least a little bit. I applaud you, and I also wish to give you some strength to power through some of these less than intelligent responses to your well written article, kind sir!

  64. I think the red pill is overrated in some ways but it is legit in other ways. I think Mgtow is stupid for various reasons, it’s about bitter men trying to cope with making money and lifting and trying to get to have sex only, in order to pay back. But the fact that this article has way over 100 comments/replies proves that most men experience similar dating histories. You are basically proof of it too, Steven, because I think you called yourself a nerd or awkward in the past and you have gone through the same that most men go through in their life, if they happened not be the best looking and popular men that women flock around. Men don’t just become awkward and social outcasts by accident, there is a process behind it and it’s usually because of their lack of success with women.

    I recently read an article about a 50+ year old lawyer who noticed 2 interesting facts that he was never aware before:

    his daughter went to HS and one of her class mates (an A+ student, with good manners etc) was courting her but she didn’t want to be his girlfriend. Her dad asked her why and she said “Dad, you don’t date this guys at my age now, you marry him later”. The lawyer was then reminded about something similar his wife had told him years before. He told his wife that he wished he had met her earlier in his life, maybe during College and his wife said “No honey, it’s better we didn’t meet then, otherwise I wouldn’t have appreciated you then”.

    The lawyer basically learned that he would have never been the guy his wife would have dated when she was in her 20s and having fun. Only when he became successful and she became older and about to settle, he was considered marriage material. This story actually reminded myself about my family where similar things happened.

    1. Source on that article? Your story sounds made-up to me because 1) That’s a weird thing for a lawyer to ask his daughter, 2) That’s a weirder thing for a High School student to say to her dad, and 3) That’s an extremely weird thing for a wife to say to her husband.

      1. Doesn’t sound made up to me, actually I thought it was quite normal. Nothing shocking about it. Maybe it’s you, who thinks it’s weird.

        The article was an article about how to parent your children, so it had nothing to do with the red pill at all. It was just a coincidence that he brought that up that topic. I could only find this part of it:

        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBwe8v9XYAEKjQ2.jpg

        1. I do think it’s weird. But as an actual writer that’s been featured on Yahoo and Huffpost and who has thousands of monthly readers, maybe my opinion carries some weight when I say that written dialogue sounds weird.

  65. I mean it might sound weird to you but that’s how things work now and why wouldn’t they talk like that? What was written is basically reality for so many men and women. It was a bit different in the past though.

    Back in the 60s, 50s and previous decades women weren’t allowed to work jobs and meeting men wasn’t as easy as it is now. Therefore they needed a man who could provide for them. Families and friends introduced men and women to each other and women were more likely to accept marrying a man with a good job. It was less about love.

    Nowadays women have the freedom to work and meet the men they want. Social media and dating apps have changed our society a lot. A woman wants fun and adventure too, therefore she is not obligated to marry the next best men she meets. She can choose who she wants to spend time with, especially in her youth. An average looking woman gets like a hundred of matches and likes on tinder, so therefore she wants to enjoy her freedom to meet and sleep with whom she pleases. When she wants family and kids she will not marry an unemployed player, she will look for a guy with other qualities (financial security, maturity, etc). So to me the article makes total sense.

  66. Yep thats why I call redpillers menimists because they are just as bad as extreme feminists. I also like how the author of this article admits that not all redpill advice is bad but would like to add that much of it could be reduced down more universally and is older advice than the redpill movement itself. Don’t put people on pedestals. Be your own person with your own life. Own your shit. Look after yourself. Don’t just focus on the opposite sex/have a life of your own. These things make all people more attractive to the opposite sex its not rocket science or just for men. Its called maturity!

    Also a big one for me that I am not sure is part of redpill or extreme feminism is walk your talk. You don’t want someone from the cock carousel then don’t ride the pussy carousel or you are just as hypocritical as an extreme feminist. If you dont want to be manipulated dont manipulate its similar to ‘do unto others…’ even though I am an atheist I believe in the truth of that phrase. I love the use of alpha and beta as the person who coined those terms and then dismissed them realized this behavior is only relevant with captive specimens. Anyone who believes those terms is basically admitting they are captive/bitches. Don’t you just love the irony.

    What gets me is the pitiful woe is me, who has it worse contest from both men and women post normal divorce (non psychopathic, non abusive etc); both sides cry over who has it worse. Well I will tell you; THE KIDS!!! The grown ups can just suck it up and stop crying like selfish children and their pathetic ‘who had it worst’ sob stories; anything worthwhile in life has a risk when you invest emotionally stop acting like you never knew or you have no business being in a damn relationship in the first place. Life separates the strong from the weak and strong realize there is always risk and love anyway. The weak treat the opposite sex like a thing to be controlled because they are scared of being hurt. Ive walked away from a house full of things and money and I am not going to become a pity party for it. Its repulsive from both men and women.

    Guess what people; some people are cheaters some are men some are women. When I hear a redpiller talking about how women will cheat if they are not managed, you cant trust them sounds exactly like a bitter extreme feminist complaining that ‘all men are dogs/shit, you cant trust them’. Both of these extremes expect the other side to submit to them and neither side can see the irony. Pretty funny! Any attempt to make that reality more complicated usually means someone is projecting.

    “Even if it is abuse it works” comment above trying to justify the ‘dread game’ you are just playing on fear like a narcissist; sure their tactics can be effective but guess what they are immoral and they define the calibre of person you are. That kind of person probably criticizes the worst examples of the opposite sex to justify it (or say bullshit like ‘its their nature’). If its that bad why copy it? You just became part of the problem you were crying about.

    Its actually not that hard to get laid you just get experience like with all things you get better over time. As I have seen in the comments of redpill forums some realize that many unattractive, crap personality, moneyless people get heaps of sex (and have heaps of damn babies they struggle to care for); its not that hard unless you are fussy then in that case it goes with the territory; quality over quantity. Finally people if you want a LTR but reduce it to some mere transactional agreement just go pay for sex, heck you can even pay for companionship too. Too many people pay shitty games; ‘person I find attractive did not give me what I wanted so I played on their jealousy to try and get what I want’ what alot of emotional investment in high school behavior. Do you even see a person or just an opportunity to get what you want? What the heck happened to people that just let interaction flow and be open to new experiences, and not expect anything. You get such a myriad of experiences that way. There are so many different kinds of people in the world yet both extremes want to typecast the ‘other side’. I say dont let them.

    Redpillers are just extreme menimists and are just as cringe as extreme feminists. Dont like the waffle of one then dont be a hypocrite and follow the other! In this age we all have alot of choice its not just the gender you are trying to get into the pants of! A century ago both men and women were expected to marry young and produce multiple cannon fodders and tax payers. We can all choose. Listening to people get upset that the other gender gets to choose too just because you are not having any luck is really pretty weak. “its my height/my tits are not big enough/I dont make enough money” etc the excuses are endless. What to you want; if its interaction with the opposite sex based on looks then yes expect your looks will be judged too (i.e. I only want sex with ‘hotties) so please stop saying you are doing it for a ltr when your expectations are as shallow as a puddle. Some of the best interactions I have had were not with people who looked like models and tbh I remember them much more. Men/women dont have enough role-models etc what a load of crap! Ya’ll just jealous that the platform has to be shared unlike how it was in the supposed ‘good old days’. There are plenty out there you just have to get off your lazy behind to find them instead of assuming dating site options or google algorithms will do it for you. The best role models are not the most well known ones. We are inundated with information and communication in this age; it takes a while to wade through it all. Especially as the ones that grab the most attention are usually not the good ones just the ones that get the most ‘views’.

  67. Hey man. So it has been a week since I discovered TRP, And I have never had any game with women and seeing couples happy made me very unhappy because I don’t have a SO. Going through TRP made me even more depressed because I don’t want to treat women as somebody who I can manipulate and fuck whenever I want. But TRP made me want to try those things but reading your article brought me back to Earth. Thanks so much. The only advice I will take from TRP is to hit the gym and eat clean. Thanks again for the excellent article.

  68. The ego is the thing ultimately responsible for this ‘alpha’ mentality. The ego is an interesting thing, it can bring a sense of security to the mind but it’s easily hurt by slight, often untinentional, offenses. The alpha man thinks he’s on top, but his status is built on shaky foundations. When another man rises to his apparent level, that is seen as a challenge for status. This leads to jealousy, contempt, bullying, even assault and battery. When a woman demands to have her needs met, or even to be respected as a human being, this is seen as emasculation and is treated as a threat. The ego causes people to conflate fear with respect, and I’m sure most people can see where this leads to aggressive behavior, rape, abuse, and pain.

    In case anyone is wondering how I can possibly know this, my father is a “red pill” man. Sure, he was loyal to my mother in marriage, but he demanded she bow to his every wish. He loved me as a son, but also saw me as a threat to his ego, so the result was a relationship that was always distant and rarely healthy. He developed a distrust for all women over the years, to the point that he disowned my sister once she had enough of his bullying. Once I got bigger and could ‘out perform’ him, he started calling me a fat slob just to make himself feel better. He always wanted to be rich, and he came very close to it, but the recession threw him into bankruptcy. His father, also an ‘alpha’ male, is actually wealthy and has been holding it over my dad’s head since birth. My father did not suffer from bad women, he wasn’t replaced by a bigger ‘alpha’, his own quest for greatness led him to divorce, isolation, alochol, and depression. Sure, there was a good 20 years where he was an alpha. He was the best real estate agent in the county making the biggest sales. He owned 160 acres of prime farmland, he had a devoted wife and two kids that look up to him. He had what most men dream of, and his own hubris destroyed his life.

    I suppose that, according to TRP, I would be classified as a beta. I own no property Ive had a dry spell with sex since freashman year of college, and never had a long lasting relationship. But I can speak authority that being ultra-masculine doesn’t bring long term success. Sure, you might find great initial success at getting a raise or funding a woman, but eventually every man has to make a choice; either put the ego on a leash and tone down the masculinity, or let the ego control your life and become a slave to a gendered ideology.

    As you can imagine, I’ve made a point in life to master and control my ego. I’ve got nothing to prove to another man, no matter how great he might be. All I’ve got to offer a woman is a steady and loyal personality that puts the relationship before personal needs. And guess what? Some men don’t respect me. But that’s okay vecause to be honest, respect ain’t worth a damn unless its mutual. I’m no longer in the “Great Male Pissing Contest” because I see where it leads and I don’t like the destination. I’m happy to build a life where I can hunt, fish, and help others through my work. And if a woman enters the picture, it will be because we understand each other, not because she’s good in bed. And if that woman never appears, so what?

    Either way, I’m no less of a man because I’m genuinely happy with my life.

  69. Alright, new reader here, hello Steven. I am looking forward to checking out your content and perspectives and much appreciation for taking out the time to try and help men with dating. It can be tough and daunting, especially because men are in the role of hunters on gender dynamics. I am not sure if you are still replying to comments on your article, but I would appreciate if you would take time to read what I have to say and understand what I am trying to say. I feel here that you are not listening to the other men on here that are discussing what they find good about Red Pill Theory and that you are trying to cling so much to morals that you are allowing it to compromise your ability to listen and try to understand other points of view. And I understand why you are doing so, there are a lot of sexist things said in the subreddit known as redpil and none of it is excusable. But I feel you are problems with the Red Pill Theory are misplaced as you are conflating the theory itself to a bunch of angry whiny men that complain about women. Actual Red Pill Theory comes from the source material, Rollo Tomassi primarily, and from the tenets of the Rationale Male. The Rationale Male “in my opinion,” is not a sexist book nor is the theory that primarily Tomassi fathers. He repeatedly stated that he’s not trying to demonize female nature, but he seeks to try to explain female nature from his own personal research and life experiences with his client base. The idea is that the Red Pill just is, objective reality according to the author, referring to women’s nature. He never claims female nature is bad, but he talks about what he theorizes it to be. It’s a theory, you can agree or disagree with it but I am going to argue to you my problems with what you’ve written to be saying thatRed Pill theory is just simply bad advice and that there is no truth to it. Here, I offer my detailed dissent to your article and please try to read to listen, my intent is not for this to be a fight, but to offer my perspective and to try to better conceptualize what other men have been trying to get you to see about what they and myself find with your arguments:

    **What is the Red Pill?**:

    According to you, you say that redpil is the subreddit community which the theory itself is not. I won’t go into too much detail here as I went into much of that with my lengthy intro. The subreddit is not the author of the Red Pill Theory. It mainly comes from Tomassi and a few other authors but the subreddit or any subreddit in general should never be taken as definitive source material for anything because anyone can make a post on a subreddit. Subreddits are mostly just fan pages of topics or mediums. A subreddit can be made for Star Wars, but not everything a poster says about Star Wars is necessarily true. The angry virgin male living at home with his Mom in a basement typing on a computer is not the father of the theory nor is he an authority. The Rationale Male is the primary source of the Theory and if you read that book, Tomassi never speaks of women with such toxicity as some of the subredditors obviously do. And it’s good to condemn them, but I think it is a mistake to try and basket them together and use their toxic behavior to condemn the theory. I can go to any subreddit where there is fandom or a group and find toxic people.

    Red Pill Theory is opening your eyes to the hypergamous nature of women and social conventions, not being sexist towards them, and using the knowledge from that theory to better your life with women.

    **The Truth About Aplha and Beta**

    Aplha and Beta do not have to refer to wolves even if that is some of its origins. Using common sense, alphas and betas exist, not in a vacuum of course or in absolutes as there is always nuance, but there are strong and independent men just as there are weak and needy men. Same goes for women, there are strong women and weak women.

    This simple idea was what Tomassi and also Mark Manson were trying to convey in albeit different languages and styles, we’ll mention him since you brought up Models as the more definitive standard for men to follow. Mark Manson attacks being needy and he promotes the idea that men need to “polarize” and attract women by being the best version of themselves and don’t care if women accept him because he accepts him. This is exactly what Tomassi is arguing, again in different styles and languages here. He says that beta males are males that try to conform their ways of life and personality to impress or keep a woman, an alpha male does not. An alpha is confident in himself and his life and will never compromise who he is just to get laid or just to please a woman. The difference between Manson and Tomassi is that Tomassi tries to dig a bit more into female nature while Manson does not delve too deep. Aplhas and betas definitely exist.

    “It provides a way for blame someone else for your problems”

    This is also an incorrect assertion of Red Pill Theory. I understand you when you say you feel like after viewing the subreddit that it seems like Red Pill tries to blame women and feminism and if you are just talking about whiners and complainers on the subreddit and not the actual theory, I would agree with you. That is victim mentality to bash women and not try to take responsibility to solve your problems. I agree. But going again, back to the source material of Tomassi, he is actually in agreement with your belief that men should not play the victims and that they should self-improve. He actually condemns that in his book several times and says don’t complain about struggle but to get better. Like Tomassi, Manson also says men need to work on self-improvement. Tomassi says because of hypergamy, that men need to be the best version of themselves, their LMS(Looks, Money, Status) matter. And hypergamy is real, all you have to do is open Tinder as a female, and scroll to the Top Picks of the Day as well as your inbox and match count, and you will see just how hypergamous women are. Tomassi is not saying that hypergamy is an excuse for men’s dating failures, but rather he is trying to teach men about it in hopes that they will change their behavior to accommodate for it and be more successful with women. Self-improvement means going to the gym, having style, getting your money straight, having a purpose, something that Tomassi and Manson both state in their books.

    **The price you pay for following The Red Pill**

    I want to focus specifically on you calling dread games abuse since it seems like this is one of the more controversial points of contention. I want to go start my rebuttal with a direct Tomassi quote:

    “Contrary to popular belief I’m not an advocate of the Dark Triad methodologies of Game. Not because I think they’re ineffective, but rather because, with the right art of Game they’re not even needed. Only in extreme cases are the dark arts to be employed, and if a situation necessitates their use it’s important for a guy to understand that a line has been crossed with a woman who necessitated their use.”

    For context here, in Tomassi’s discussion of Dread Game, he is pointing out that these tactics of enforcing dread games are only when women are actually taking advantage of or abusing you in some type of way in a relationship. I do see what you are saying that a man that is constantly trying to instill terror into a woman with dread ganes with the sole intention to torture her is probably abuse. I agree, but here is my argument for why dread ganes in response to negative behavior is not abuse.

    You are in school as a child right? Maybe you had bullies but maybe you didn’t. Nonetheless, children get bullied in school. A bully is abusing children on a regular basis. I was bullied when I was younger, luckily not too often but my parents always told me if I get hit that I better hit back. Sure you could try and tell a teacher or you could try talking to the bully but you know that half the time the teacher will not do anything and you know you cannot reason with a bully. A bully will keep picking on you as long as you let them. In order to stop the bully you have to stand up for yourself and defend yourself even if you lose the fight or get beat.

    Dread games in response to a women’s negative behavior is not abuse, it’s self-defense. Allowing a woman to keep on bullying you without setting boundaries is akin to allowing the bully to keep beating you because school says “hitting is wrong no matter who starts it.” If a woman is devaluing you, there is nothing wrong with showing her you have options of women that will value you should she continue and give you reason to leave. I believe you said to another commenter here that instead of showing interest in dancing with other girls because the girl was doing it to you, you should have an adult conversation. OK but that is basically the equivalent of saying you should tell a teacher or trying to reason with a bully. You gain respect for standing up for yourself, which is why you so often hear the story of how bullies became friends of their victims once they stood up to them. It’s the same with a relationship. Women will respect you if you show you have boundaries and that she can lose you if she does wrong by you. Which is why the woman in the guy’s story respected him afterwards. Having relationship boundaries is ultimately healthy for both parties.

    “The Red Pill is just incomplete! You can just take the good and leave the bad!”

    This is true, you can take good and leave bad. How many scientists or theorists have bad information or have bad studies but then go on to produce better studies. Or studies that have some failures in finding information, but also found some good information. No one person or source is completely right and has all the answers in every scenario. Even if you think all of Manson’s advice is good, and I do think his book is good, you cannot say there may not be something that doesn’t work for someone in a different scenario. I will not claim that everything Tomassi writes is bond, neither will I for Manson. Some of their information you may find you connect with, some you may not. And that is okay. HTWFAIP and Manson’s ideas in Models are contradictory as another commenter pointed out in some ways. Carnegie would never advise that you “polarize” anyone. Carnegie argues putting the other person first in that book, while Manson advises putting yourself first in his.

    I understand condemning the sexism that men on the subreddit spout and I agree that we should condemn it, but again, sexism is the attitude of the angry whiny men, not the theory and Tomassi’s writing itself.

    You can take good from bad as you have to take different things from Carnegie and Manson to apply their principles for your lifestyle and when your in different situations.

    “But I used The Red Pill and it helped me!”

    And as you said yourself, Red Pill Theory has good advice. So what’s wrong with men reading the actual theory and using what works by Tomassi and avoiding the subreddit and sexism of some of its fans?

    You can learn from any perspective, even those that you consider abhorrent. That doesn’t mean you agree with everything. There are people that voted for Trump because they agreed with Republican ideologies like cutting taxes, but if you talk to some that voted for him, they will say he wishes he stayed off of Twitter. Someone else here made a similar analogy to you generalizing, but you chose to ignore it.

    “There will always be people being extreme or callous but why the charge against the actual philosophy? It’s like hating the whole of Islam because of the actions of a small sub-group.”

    With all due respect, you do nothing to address this analogy in this portion of your piece. You are pointing to angry men on a subreddit, you are not responding to Tomassi’s works. Which again, we can condemn sexism and we should, but again “because sexism,” is not an argument that refutes the ideology. I could pick out people from BLM and say because some of them bash police, that BLM is all bad, which many people do generalize by the way and it’s a huge problem in our society today and contributes to ardent political polarization. I try to stay away from moral black and white tribalist thinking as I feel it keeps us from understanding each other’s perspectives. And this divides us as a world. Keep your morals, I believe you have good ones Steven, but you must also keep an open mind or you will fall susceptible to bigotry(it actually means close-mindedness of difference, not just racism). I am not preaching at you, this is something I struggle to do myself when I am convinced I am right and I have to check my biases repeatedly.

    I know this was long but I hope you do read all of it and we can have an open discussion or at the very least you can consider my points here. I try to be open-minded and I hope that you actually read the Rationale Male with an open-mind and you didn’t just click on a subreddit and just say, “Wow Red Pill is bad because angry whiny men with no credentials are sexist.” There is toxicity online in most forums because online is a cesspool for arguments, insults, and trolling cause people are braver saying things behind a keyboard than in real life.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Prove that you're human! * Time limit is exhausted. Please reload CAPTCHA.